Liverpool FC Forum

[Lando_Griffin]

Funnily enough the forum hasn't even been that negative. That's the good thing with title challenges,things happen gradually and people have had plenty of time to get used to the idea that it might not be our year. I said it somewhere else and it was true, we didn't lose our title capabilities against Man City. In truth, they aren't a bad side particularly given their window purchases. My view is that they're probably around Evertons level if not slightly better, so it's no disgrace to not manage to beat them.

That's the rub though, the negativity isn't because of one result, and neither is our lague position. We're second because we've done well and only lost one match. Unfortunately though, we're also second and a fair way back now not because of this result, but because of lots like them.

So on the one hand you're saying the forum isn't that negative, whilst on the other saying it's negative because of similar results?

Make your mind up. You usually do.

[Lando_Griffin]

Good post Lando. Total b0ll0cks of course you fecking c... (thought we'd have a bit of role reversal ), but good post anyway.

Get.

To.

F*ck.

Dimwit.

(I hate role-reversals... )

[Effes]

I do think whether football success is directly related to money spent.

Look at how the "big 4" has more or less dominated the top 4 positions in the league.

It doesn't look like Liverpool will ever be able to spend what Chelseas and Man U spend -
so does that mean we should never have hopes of winning the league? And pin all our
"realistic" hopes in the Cup competitions?

[TheRedsFan]

I do think whether football success is directly related to money spent.

Look at how the "big 4" has more or less dominated the top 4 positions in the league.

It doesn't look like Liverpool will ever be able to spend what Chelseas and Man U spend -
so does that mean we should never have hopes of winning the league? And pin all our
"realistic" hopes in the Cup competitions?

True, dont need to spend money like Chelsea or Man U to win titles, what you do need is good chemestry amoung the players, a manager, with good vision and also to be able know who to buy for your team

  Looks like Rafa failed, besides Torres there is no other player that Rafa brought to LFC that made an impact, and with Robbie Keane he missed the boat

[kazza]

Here's a question:

If next year Raffa was manager of Utd and Fergie was manager of LFC (perish the thought) who would most likely win the premiership? Utd are a better team and it will take a super effort to take the title from them and it is not something we should take for granted because we are Liverpool, so to blame Raffa is a little simplistic.  My vote is he is the best chance we have right now.

[Ciggy]

I am fuckin sick and tired of reading about Rafa all the time, I support Liverpool FC why can we not talk about the team for a change, every bloody topics about Rafa.

Them kunts in charge need to go first and foremost end of.

[SupitsJonF]

Here's a question:

If next year Raffa was manager of Utd and Fergie was manager of LFC (perish the thought) who would most likely win the premiership? Utd are a better team and it will take a super effort to take the title from them and it is not something we should take for granted because we are Liverpool, so to blame Raffa is a little simplistic.  My vote is he is the best chance we have right now.

I think United would have a bit more draws, not too many, but a few.

How many games did they scrape a 1-0 to?  Lots, and it was because they did an all out attack throughout the entire second half.  Rafa would most likely want his team not to lose defensive composure.

While liverpool beat the other top teams (almost with ease), I think an attack-minded manager like Fergie would of handled the 10 teams we drew to better then Rafa did. 

But no one will ever know.

[Scottbot]

The answer to Mick's thread opener is quite simple imo.  Why do people get so upset when Benitez is criticised?

I'll tell you why, because deep down most of don't want to admit that Benitez has done wrong.  We don't want to admit to ourselves that we've thrown away a decent chance to be in with a title shot and are now realistically out of it in February.  We don't want to admit that Benitez was responsible (at least in part) for the Keane fiasco.  We don't want to admit that his contract dispute is helping to derail our season.  We don't want to admit that his rant against Fergie put us under unnecessary pressure.  We don't want to admit that we've underachieved over the last few years for the money we've spent.  But to be honest, all of that is unfortunately true.

But to put things into perspective, certain things have made Benitez's job a hell of a lot harder than it could have been.  The owners aren't pulling in the right direction.  Keane's form was horrendous and Benitez can't be solely blamed for that - Keane needs to take a certain amount of blame for his performances.  You also have to realise that United are ridiculously strong at the moment, I'd go as far as to say they don't really have a weakness.  They have depth, experience, pace, power, flair, the best defence in the league, the best collection of attacking players in Europe.  Sometimes you just have to admit that the opposition are better, painful as it may be.  Yet despite all our problems on and off the field, they are the only team ahead of us in the league.

So should Benitez stay or should he go?  Tough call.  I'm not absolutely for or against.  I do however feel that as long as these yanks are here we need some sort of stability at the club, so changing the manager might not be the answer right now.  I do have a feeling that Benitez will soon have had enough of this though.  He's always crucified in the press, there are forces within the club who want him out and now certain sections of fans are against him.  The guy must be under immense pressure and it can't be good for his health either.  We just badly need a couple of wins to give everyone a lift, and maybe we can forget about the manager's situation until the summer.

Top post this John plus it goes a good way to explain why so many people get angry on these boards. Because it highlights both sides of the story, it's fairly critical of Rafa in the 1st paragraph but then goes on to highlight some of the factors working against the manager and the need for some stability.

It's a BALANCED post and let's face it, they are pretty rare on here. Lando is right in his post when he says that there are a lot of posters who seem to disregard Champions League success as if it were the league cup (I sometimes wonder if people have forgotten we made it to that 2nd final? The fact we didn't win it seems to have utterly undermined the achievement of getting there). However, Lando omits the league form of the club when he talks about our previous two seasons preferring to focus on our excellent progress in Europe. just about everybody does this, highlighting or omitting certain things to back up their own opinion and it's generally the stuff that gets omitted that winds up other posters who happen to have a completely different opinion.

[JC_81]

The answer to Mick's thread opener is quite simple imo.  Why do people get so upset when Benitez is criticised?

I'll tell you why, because deep down most of don't want to admit that Benitez has done wrong.  We don't want to admit to ourselves that we've thrown away a decent chance to be in with a title shot and are now realistically out of it in February.  We don't want to admit that Benitez was responsible (at least in part) for the Keane fiasco.  We don't want to admit that his contract dispute is helping to derail our season.  We don't want to admit that his rant against Fergie put us under unnecessary pressure.  We don't want to admit that we've underachieved over the last few years for the money we've spent.  But to be honest, all of that is unfortunately true.

But to put things into perspective, certain things have made Benitez's job a hell of a lot harder than it could have been.  The owners aren't pulling in the right direction.  Keane's form was horrendous and Benitez can't be solely blamed for that - Keane needs to take a certain amount of blame for his performances.  You also have to realise that United are ridiculously strong at the moment, I'd go as far as to say they don't really have a weakness.  They have depth, experience, pace, power, flair, the best defence in the league, the best collection of attacking players in Europe.  Sometimes you just have to admit that the opposition are better, painful as it may be.  Yet despite all our problems on and off the field, they are the only team ahead of us in the league.

So should Benitez stay or should he go?  Tough call.  I'm not absolutely for or against.  I do however feel that as long as these yanks are here we need some sort of stability at the club, so changing the manager might not be the answer right now.  I do have a feeling that Benitez will soon have had enough of this though.  He's always crucified in the press, there are forces within the club who want him out and now certain sections of fans are against him.  The guy must be under immense pressure and it can't be good for his health either.  We just badly need a couple of wins to give everyone a lift, and maybe we can forget about the manager's situation until the summer.

Top post this John plus it goes a good way to explain why so many people get angry on these boards. Because it highlights both sides of the story, it's fairly critical of Rafa in the 1st paragraph but then goes on to highlight some of the factors working against the manager and the need for some stability.

It's a BALANCED post and let's face it, they are pretty rare on here. Lando is right in his post when he says that there are a lot of posters who seem to disregard Champions League success as if it were the league cup (I sometimes wonder if people have forgotten we made it to that 2nd final? The fact we didn't win it seems to have utterly undermined the achievement of getting there). However, Lando omits the league form of the club when he talks about our previous two seasons preferring to focus on our excellent progress in Europe. just about everybody does this, highlighting or omitting certain things to back up their own opinion and it's generally the stuff that gets omitted that winds up other posters who happen to have a completely different opinion.

To be honest mate, it's completely understandable why many of the posts on here are not balanced at the moment.  Lets be honest, we're all completely gutted at the way things have gone recently.  Our poor form is bad enough, but United's form is a real kick in the bollox.

And as far as my previous post goes, I wouldn't have been capable of trying to post anything like a balanced post after the City game, or indeed after a lot of games recently.  Sometimes the only way to make sense of it is to step back and realise it's only a game at the end of the day.  A bloody important game mind!

[Redbilly1960]

People mouth off insults, because the don't have an intelligent reply to offer for an argument they don't like/want to hear.

It's that simple.

You only have to look at some of the replies on here by some people to see that they just do not have a reasoned response for their position formed in their head.

(Said by you, no doubt, in a sort of post-counseling "I love me" way, hinting at the troubled childhood where you were shunned by those around you, only to find your one true purpose of being "The Village Idiot", meaning you would forever be tarnished with the disdainful looks of faces past, and a faint odour of rotting pilchards.)

Absolute Class so funny it hurt 

[heimdall]

People mouth off insults, because the don't have an intelligent reply to offer for an argument they don't like/want to hear.

It's that simple.

You only have to look at some of the replies on here by some people to see that they just do not have a reasoned response for their position formed in their head.

The inane ramblings of an idiot.

I don't counter dim-witted arguments as no matter where you're from, bullsh*t baffles brains.

You aren't here to learn. You aren't here to form opinions.

You're here to GIVE opinions.

Once a poster with all the intellectual agility of a carrot has made their amoeba-like mind up, all the reasoned and informed debate in the World won't change it. That is "FACT." (Said by you, no doubt, in a sort of post-counseling "I love me" way, hinting at the troubled childhood where you were shunned by those around you, only to find your one true purpose of being "The Village Idiot", meaning you would forever be tarnished with the disdainful looks of faces past, and a faint odour of rotting pilchards.)

Tell me, though, if you are able:

How do you counter; "Rafa is a c*nt and I want him sacked"?

I await your response with baited breath...

How about "yeah you have a point there"   

Lando will you please stop attacking people, you're a smart guy, please try and debate instead of just belittling and bullying people all the time!!

I do actually worry about you sometimes because you seem so very angry, it's not healthy in the long run.


Ok just read your second post and although I disagree with you I'm happy to see you actually posting with just a little bit of snideness included, good post.

[stmichael]

A lot of the problem is that many people are completely incapable of intelligent, rational discussion. When they're backed into a corner or unable to prove a point they throw insults about or wheel out clichéd, bullsh#t excuses.

On here you're either with Rafa or against him. Nothing would change even if we won the Premiership in some posters eyes imo.

[Owzat]

Why oh why do people get so hot under the collar about things? Getting annoyed because the team doesn't win, that's sensible. The other stuff isn't.

Who was it who said about vanity causing people to start new threads..........................?

Anyway, I was thinking about this the other day. I reckon it's because they have doubts over their own faith in the manager/team and they can't cope with other "non-believers" who seem - in their eyes, if not in reality - to be revelling in it. Basically their faith is not being rewarded, they perhaps believe if everyone closes their eyes, holds hands and believes, then Dog will answer their prayers and reward their faith.

I guess some blame players, the manager, the owners etc and look at the problems/negatives rather than the positives, highlight them and look for solutions. Others blame the negativity of others, as if what you, I or anyone thinks is going to change reality or what happens. If I were to believe in Dog, would that mean I won't get cancer? No. As much as I want us to win the league, my "lack of faith" isn't what's preventing it, it is the teams inability to win league games and the underpinning reasons. But some do find solace in their faith even if they know that faith is unrewarded eg when someone finds Dog when they or someone close is dying of cancer or was murdered etc

[Lando_Griffin]

I wanted a kebab...     

[Owzat]

since Rafa's arrival. I am unapologetic in my damnation of this ridiculous trend of saying "Take the Champions' League progress out of it...". That is like saying "Take Ferguson's league titles away, and he's not good enough..." - it is pathetic, it is disrespectful and it is not going unnoticed on MY watch, let me tell you.

We drew our 10th match on Sunday against the richest club side in the World with Gerrard and Alonso missing and Torres at 70%. It was not a bad result in those circumstances.
Lapses in concentration, fluke goals, good opposition play and sheer bad luck have all contributed to those 10 draws. To suggest it's negative tactics is naive, as we have been caught out in the majority of times at set pieces or when we were on the attack.

I honestly believe that we just need a few adjustments here and there, and we will be a force to be reckoned with.

I also honestly believe that if Rafa leaves, we will be up the proverbial in a barbed-wire canoe.

I will stick my neck out and say most Liverpool fans want the league and couldn't give a feck about the Champions League. There's no such thing as "cup progress", that's ridiculous. You don't get closer to winning a cup, you either are in contention or not, win it or not. Take fergie's leage titles away and he isn't good enough, but he has TEN and we've had most of our success in the cups while seeking just ONE league title.


Take away just ONE league title from Rafa and he hasn't been good enough, no wait, there isn't one to take away so..................


Our league form has shown signs of improvement in the last two seasons, but we've only really become consistent in that we are difficult to beat rather than winning enough games. Premiership Champions win around 70%+ of their games, here's Rafa's record :

04/05 44.74%
05/06 65.79%
06/07 52.63%
07/08 55.26%
08/09 57.69%

Is that improvement? It's not even close to what we need to be doing. If league titles were awarded for least defeats then he'd be in with a shout

04/05 36.84%
05/06 15.79%
06/07 27.03%
07/08 10.53%
08/09 3.85%

We've lost only 7.81% of our games since the 2007 Champions League Final. What have we to show for it? Improvement is one thing, but there is a goal at Liverpool FC and I bet the owners, board and fans won't simply accept perceived "improvement". They want trophies, they want "the big one". As with a cup campaign, you either win it or you don't. Runners-Up is close, but no cigar.

As for justifying a poor result, citeh travel poorly (one away win in the league) and we can't rely on having Torres fully fit and Gerrard and Alonso available to win home games - we beat the other side of manchester without Torres and mostly without Gerrard, didn't hear that excuse used then. What excuse the other five games we haven't won at home? It's funny how "unlucky" we are while the mancs cruise onwards to their umpteenth Premiership title, possibly a second European Cup and Premiership Double, another Treble or maybe even a Quadruple. Cue the excuse about money, ownership wrangles or Rafa only getting his 99th choice players......................