Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

The answer to Mick's thread opener is quite simple imo.  Why do people get so upset when Benitez is criticised?

I'll tell you why, because deep down most of don't want to admit that Benitez has done wrong.  We don't want to admit to ourselves that we've thrown away a decent chance to be in with a title shot and are now realistically out of it in February.  We don't want to admit that Benitez was responsible (at least in part) for the Keane fiasco.  We don't want to admit that his contract dispute is helping to derail our season.  We don't want to admit that his rant against Fergie put us under unnecessary pressure.  We don't want to admit that we've underachieved over the last few years for the money we've spent.  But to be honest, all of that is unfortunately true.

But to put things into perspective, certain things have made Benitez's job a hell of a lot harder than it could have been.  The owners aren't pulling in the right direction.  Keane's form was horrendous and Benitez can't be solely blamed for that - Keane needs to take a certain amount of blame for his performances.  You also have to realise that United are ridiculously strong at the moment, I'd go as far as to say they don't really have a weakness.  They have depth, experience, pace, power, flair, the best defence in the league, the best collection of attacking players in Europe.  Sometimes you just have to admit that the opposition are better, painful as it may be.  Yet despite all our problems on and off the field, they are the only team ahead of us in the league.

So should Benitez stay or should he go?  Tough call.  I'm not absolutely for or against.  I do however feel that as long as these yanks are here we need some sort of stability at the club, so changing the manager might not be the answer right now.  I do have a feeling that Benitez will soon have had enough of this though.  He's always crucified in the press, there are forces within the club who want him out and now certain sections of fans are against him.  The guy must be under immense pressure and it can't be good for his health either.  We just badly need a couple of wins to give everyone a lift, and maybe we can forget about the manager's situation until the summer.

Top post John

[bigmick]

Quick question, and before you answer it just give it a fraction of thought for a second because it might not be absolutely as clear cut as you think. If we would had signed Ronaldo and not Man Utd, would he have flourished under Rafa like he has at Old Trafford.

I actualy believe he would have Mick. Simple

Fair enough Nan, and in all honesty he's such a good player my feeling is he probably would have as well. That said, you can see why I ask the question. He was poor at Man Utd when he first arrived, doesn't work his nuts off tracking back and overall isn't on the face of it a Rafa player at all.

He's a classic example of a player for whom the purchase was only half the story. He needed managing, the game explaining to, his responsibilitites pointing out, an arm around the shoulder, building up, a father figure. Buy him, get all the rest right and you've got a World player of the year on your hands.

Get the purchase wrong, and don't handle him correctly and shtop, you've got Ryan Babel.

[Reg]

We bought Ngog when we could have had Anelka, we bought Babel instead of Anelka, we bought Keane for 8 million more than Chelsea paid for Anelka.

Does rafa pi$$ me off, yes. Do I sack him for it, no.

[NANNY RED]

Quick question, and before you answer it just give it a fraction of thought for a second because it might not be absolutely as clear cut as you think. If we would had signed Ronaldo and not Man Utd, would he have flourished under Rafa like he has at Old Trafford.

I actualy believe he would have Mick. Simple

Fair enough Nan, and in all honesty he's such a good player my feeling is he probably would have as well. That said, you can see why I ask the question. He was poor at Man Utd when he first arrived, doesn't work his nuts off tracking back and overall isn't on the face of it a Rafa player at all.

He's a classic example of a player for whom the purchase was only half the story. He needed managing, the game explaining to, his responsibilitites pointing out, an arm around the shoulder, building up, a father figure. Buy him, get all the rest right and you've got a World player of the year on your hands.

Get the purchase wrong, and don't handle him correctly and shtop, you've got Ryan Babel.

I was just tellin Ace i honestly believe even if Babel would have gone somewhere else in the prem i still believe he would not have been able to hack it . an still would of been the similar player he is now with us

[bigmick]

I don't know about unwritten rules that you have to win the league in five years, but you probably need to win something over a three year period at most big clubs in Europe. This particularly applies if you don't have the equity of having built a top class team there in the past.

Managers must win football matches, and managers at top clubs must win trophies. Unwritten or not, that's the way it is. Whe Rafa came to power five years ago, if he'd have said that in his last three years he didn't expect to win anything, but we would finish our last season in the Premiership under his contract 9 points behind the Champions I don't think too many would have got excited by that.

I'm not too excited by it myself to be perfectly honest either. His record almost whichever way you look at it, be it in silverware, purchases, bringing through kids, playing attractive football etc etc is hardly startling. As it is the record is barely, just, resonable. Take out the Champions League win with the group of players which largely were left behind and his record is terrible. I know you can't "take out the Champions League" but I think given the manner in which we won the thing, I think it's reasonable to consider what would have happened if all those little bounces and swerves which went our way in that competition hadn't. If we hadn't have prevailed there, he would be out on his ear without even a thanks very much, that is the reality.

[Kharhaz]

If Babel went to Arsenal, he would have been something. He can handle the premiership, Babel that is, its how you handle him and how you get the best of him that determines your opinion.

[bigmick]

Quick question, and before you answer it just give it a fraction of thought for a second because it might not be absolutely as clear cut as you think. If we would had signed Ronaldo and not Man Utd, would he have flourished under Rafa like he has at Old Trafford.

I actualy believe he would have Mick. Simple

Fair enough Nan, and in all honesty he's such a good player my feeling is he probably would have as well. That said, you can see why I ask the question. He was poor at Man Utd when he first arrived, doesn't work his nuts off tracking back and overall isn't on the face of it a Rafa player at all.

He's a classic example of a player for whom the purchase was only half the story. He needed managing, the game explaining to, his responsibilitites pointing out, an arm around the shoulder, building up, a father figure. Buy him, get all the rest right and you've got a World player of the year on your hands.

Get the purchase wrong, and don't handle him correctly and shtop, you've got Ryan Babel.

I was just tellin Ace i honestly believe even if Babel would have gone somewhere else in the prem i still believe he would not have been able to hack it . an still would of been the similar player he is now with us

Yes I'm not sure he's got it Nan to be honest. The thing is with him though, he so obviously isn't a left midfielder, and he so obviously isn't ever goign to thrive in a rotationary system, I wonder why we ever bought him.

If he went to a West Ham or someone similar, they'd stick him up top and give him a proper go. I don't think he'd cut it to be honest, but you never know. Just like we all knew Cisse wasn't a right winger, Babel isn't a left one and in his proper position, just like the Sunderland man he might be a better player than David N'Gog.

[Lando_Griffin]

How many of the trophies that Rafa has won have been won in 90 mins in the 'final'?

Champions League - extra time and penalties
FA Cup - extra time and penalties
UEFA Super Cup - 3-1 after extra time
Community Shield - 2-1 in 90 mins

Who's name is on the trophy?

[Lando_Griffin]

The shear arrogance of you people is astounding ,Liverpool are second and the closest team to the Mancs not because there an exceptional team ,but because we have an extremely astute manager and tactician , Who most teams with any aspirations would proffer their own granny in exchange.
I suggest instead of utilising your vast knowledge and obviously huge intellect in posting disparaging remarks you get firmly behind the team and the manager ,and maybe, just maybe enter the place we less learned posters call reality .
The need to be heard is becoming tedious, posters vanity  should have no place on this forum ,put simply I hazard a guess this forum in its present guise would not exist if the manager and the team were successful.
As for the posters that deem Martin O'neil as a possible replacement hang your heads people .
Benitez is currently running this famous club of ours under incredible duress ,the present owners have some heinous plans for Liverpool and should be the target of your vitriol and abuse ,the underlying fact that they are not the sole target is a sad indictment of the naive nature of the majority of posters.
I hasten to add this is not a pop at any particular poster this is now a wide spectrum of contributors  ,Liverpool fc has a new head and its the head of a serpent ,these people should be our nemesis not the manager.........

Spot f*cking on. 

[Lando_Griffin]

The shear arrogance of you people is astounding ,

Forgive us lord for we have sinned, how dare we DISCUSS the situation at the club we support and refer to us as "you people"

I think it's arrogant for someone to tell a whole forum what is and isn't arrogant, acceptable etc. And how arrogant of you to look down and tell us we should get behind the team when we do, just because we discuss it in a forum doesn't mean we don't.

Maybe it's arrogance on your part, maybe it's ignorance. I don't care. But don't presume to tell any of "us people" what to do and how to do it 

F*ck off Owzat. We've all listened to the whinging scum on here for too long.

Shut it, the lot of you.

Moaning b*stards.

[Lando_Griffin]

"The shear arrogance of you people is astounding ,Liverpool are second and the closest team to the Mancs not because there an exceptional team ,but because we have an extremely astute manager and tactician , Who most teams with any aspirations would proffer their own granny in exchange".

People keep on going on about being second as some kind of achievement!! Its not and never will be acceptable. We should be winning championships not folding tamely at home to Man City with twelve games to go. If people are content with second best and are moved to protest at any criticism of Rafa, dispite of the clear evidence to the contrary, I suggest the best interests of the club are not being served.

Tell you what, then:

Brace yourself for a lifetime of disappointment, as nothing you ever do, see, hear or get will ever be "Number 1."

With the set of miserable tw*ts on here, if we won it it would be "lucky", or "it was down to other teams' f*ck ups", or "Gerrard did it all on his own."

I honestly can't believe why most of you haven't committed suicide. You probably mourn for 3 weeks at a time when you fart in bed.

[SupitsJonF]

Edit- Dunno why it quoted you lando.

I've had to read all the optimism (some realistic, much more unrealistic) too, but I am not complaining.

Its works two ways, just because one is happy and the other isn't doesn't mean the happy talk is acceptable.  From a neutral stand point the Rafa lovers treat the people who dont like rafa pretty negatively, even though they try to have a discussion.  And FACT, it is clear that most rafa supporters will insult and go to swearing during a discussion, while not even mentioning the other sides points.  This is clear.  Clearly.

And for the record, I'm not a doom and gloomer or a happy clapper.  There was not one point in this season I thought we were out of the race until the City game.  (We can still win, but its up to United to decide if we win it or not.)

Although, a lot of the luck talk does get on my nerves.  United has been lucky all season, but yet only we are lucky?  Its the people who are narrow minded (on both sides) are the ones that get to me.

[Lando_Griffin]

Seen this on another forum.....

when Benitez arrived we were the 5th best team in the league - he didnt have a chance to buy anyone of note in his first season (indeed the first big decision he had to make was to try and persuade our top scorer from leaving for Real Madrid - which he was unable to do - thereby putting the shit team further in the shit) - even Everton finished above us that season - and we were over 30 points behind the league winners - Chelsea - who had pretty much bought up every good player in Europe at a cost of around what? £500 million or so in the previous couple of years.


what a level playing field eh? and people were moaning even then.

then - through tactical BRILLIANCE - he took us to Istanbul and the rest is history.

over the next few years we finished closer and closer to the eventual winners (except for the year he ALSO took us to another European final!!) - until Sunday at 3pm - WE BECAME WHAT WE HAD CRAVED TO BE FOR SO LONG - actual league title challengers.....

but oh my god - where were the great brilliant fluent arsenal side of the past decade? where were they under their brilliant - trophyless for 5 years - manager Arsene Wenger???

erm well mate - because Rafa has SLOWLY BUT SURELY been improving us year on year on year - WE HAVE SEEN THEM OFF.

so then - top 3 were we? er no mate - we were actually second - at the end of Feb - WITH OUR BEST POINTS TOTAL SINCE 1991 AT THIS STAGE OF THE SEASON - (no improvement there for you then??? no???) (we have also - thanks to wembley74 i am told - hit the woodwork 18 times this season in the league - which is a premiership record for a season never mind until end February!!)

well what of the free-spending STABLE club that is Chelsea then? surely they were above us -- er no mate - WE HAVE SEEN THEM OFF.

so who is left then? oh the team that have had the same manager - the same ethos - for over 20 years - the team that in that time have broken the British transfer record something like 8 times (erm remember mate? just like WE used to do BACK IN THE FUCKING DAY that is surely now dawning on you is another universe???) - the team that the MEDIA love - the team that have (and this may come as a surprise to you ALL!! - so sit down will you and prepare yourself for this shock!) BETTER PLAYERS THAN US!!


oh moan moan but rafa has spent millions hasnt he though - hes wasted a load of money - its all his fault we're not multiple trophy winners blah - boring daily mail, mirror, star reading pricks


er he has spent a lot of money yes - but guess what? - do you wanna sit down for a bit whilst i regale you with yet more FACTS and LOGIC...


utd have spent MORE than us. UTD have better players than us.

they have a better squad than us.

the dynamics of football have changed considerably in the past 20 years.

even further in fact.

YOU KNOW WHAT FACTOR DETERMINES THE LEAGUE WINNERS MORE THAN ANY OTHER?

SINCE THE END OF THE MINIMUM WAGE THE TITLE HAS GONE - ALMOST WITHOUT EXCEPTION (the exceptions being the likes of derby in the early 70s and forest late 70s) - GONE TO THE TEAM THAT SPENDS THE MOST MONEY ON PLAYERS. city in the late 60s, everton too, leeds, then us, then Blackburn, then arsenal, then utd. almost without exception that is the most important factor when trying to win the league.

utd have more money than us. FACT. we wanted Vidic - we offered the amount his escape clause said - utd came in and offered £2m more. FACT

ok - we could have won more games at home than we have. Rafa makes sometime puzzling substitutions and tactical decisions. but make no mistake - if he had had even a quarter of the backing that Ferguson has had at united then we would be pissing the league. having to spend around £6 million on players is - and i cant believe I'm saying this to be honest - is  shite - that only buys you average players at best - unless you are very very lucky - and as we have seen - Rafa just isn't that lucky is he? if he was he would surely have the backing of OUR FAMOUS SUPPORT wouldn't he?

if people want to be that fickle - if they want to jib a manager who hasn't won the league in his five years here (cos its dead fucking easy isn't it to win the English league? - (i mean all you need is less money than your main rivals - bickering board members who are trying to get rid of you AND sell the club - and a starting position that was years behind them let alone 35 points) - who has taken us to two European cup finals in five years - winning one on the greatest game the competition has ever seen - who hasn't had the same financial backing as other top clubs - who has constantly been playing catch up with these very same clubs - and who has shown this season that all his hard work has finally paid off - we ARE challengers now - before he came we just weren't and never looked like we would be - who has - from day 1 - been playing against a media that hates him/us - who has constantly been playing catch up with these very same clubs - then if you want that - fuck off and support someone like Newcastle ffs.

Get fucking real.

Whomever posted that should be knighted.

[SupitsJonF]

Edit-

Im dumb.

Never skip the first line of a post 

[aCe']

The shear arrogance of you people is astounding ,

Forgive us lord for we have sinned, how dare we DISCUSS the situation at the club we support and refer to us as "you people"

I think it's arrogant for someone to tell a whole forum what is and isn't arrogant, acceptable etc. And how arrogant of you to look down and tell us we should get behind the team when we do, just because we discuss it in a forum doesn't mean we don't.

Maybe it's arrogance on your part, maybe it's ignorance. I don't care. But don't presume to tell any of "us people" what to do and how to do it 

F*ck off Owzat. We've all listened to the whinging scum on here for too long.

Shut it, the lot of you.

Moaning b*stards.

Why the fck arent you banned ?

All you do is ruin discussions with sht posts like the one I quoted and pretty much every other post you make in a footie thread...

FFS atleast try to argue your case once in a while instead of just throwing around insults, your fcking boring and your sick jokes arent even funny !