Liverpool FC Forum

[Kharhaz]

People get annoyed, especially on match days because of the tripe written. Its continuous. There are games when the players let themselves down, and many times it is the players all of them, but the frustration kicks in when say Gerrard has a bad one or Reina or Carragher or Torres. The insults are instantly aimed at Lucas or Kuyt or Babel or Reina (50-50 on this one) or for a sure bet Rafa !

We all get frustrated after bad results but you never get a fair assessment of the game itself. When Liverpool lost to Everton in the cup, most of us see that match but straight away Kuyts fault, Lucas' fault, Rafas fault.

The frustration is easy to see. If there were fair accusations that reflect each match then im guessing there would be a better discussion. As it is, the "pro" rafa counter the same argument the "anti" rafa use. Its like a pantomime, "oh yes he is !", "oh no he isnt !"

[JC_81]

The answer to Mick's thread opener is quite simple imo.  Why do people get so upset when Benitez is criticised?

I'll tell you why, because deep down most of don't want to admit that Benitez has done wrong.  We don't want to admit to ourselves that we've thrown away a decent chance to be in with a title shot and are now realistically out of it in February.  We don't want to admit that Benitez was responsible (at least in part) for the Keane fiasco.  We don't want to admit that his contract dispute is helping to derail our season.  We don't want to admit that his rant against Fergie put us under unnecessary pressure.  We don't want to admit that we've underachieved over the last few years for the money we've spent.  But to be honest, all of that is unfortunately true.

But to put things into perspective, certain things have made Benitez's job a hell of a lot harder than it could have been.  The owners aren't pulling in the right direction.  Keane's form was horrendous and Benitez can't be solely blamed for that - Keane needs to take a certain amount of blame for his performances.  You also have to realise that United are ridiculously strong at the moment, I'd go as far as to say they don't really have a weakness.  They have depth, experience, pace, power, flair, the best defence in the league, the best collection of attacking players in Europe.  Sometimes you just have to admit that the opposition are better, painful as it may be.  Yet despite all our problems on and off the field, they are the only team ahead of us in the league.

So should Benitez stay or should he go?  Tough call.  I'm not absolutely for or against.  I do however feel that as long as these yanks are here we need some sort of stability at the club, so changing the manager might not be the answer right now.  I do have a feeling that Benitez will soon have had enough of this though.  He's always crucified in the press, there are forces within the club who want him out and now certain sections of fans are against him.  The guy must be under immense pressure and it can't be good for his health either.  We just badly need a couple of wins to give everyone a lift, and maybe we can forget about the manager's situation until the summer.

[NANNY RED]

Good post John

[aCe']

I dont really get annoyed i just get fed up to be honest, you all know ill back Rafa against anything its hard for me not to while he is the boss of the club i love. Its just i sometimes despair when you get people blaming him for everything even down to the notebook he uses , Ive heard people say Fergie or Wenger doesnt use one of them, an there doing ok, well different manager different methods.

As someone said before maybe it comes with age , maybe its because ive seen us win everything that im more tolerent, or maybe its because i think hes the best manager that weve had since Kenny, an i believe in him, god strick me down dead , i honestly in my heart believe he is well if he stays that is going to make Usgreat again.

Some question his transfers i have myself. Lets look at Lucas for instance. Many top European clubs were after him , madrid, AC, Milan an Barca. an when he signed for us as captain of the Brazilian u21 side. The media were sayin Rafa had made a coup. So surely all them other managers who tried to sign him wernt wrong an all.  maybe he would of been better off in a European team, because it looks like the premiership type of football doest suit him. But i hope you are understanding what im saying here, Same thing for Dossena at the time we signed him he was Italys first choice Right back. Maybe he will work it out next season i dunno the jurys out on him still.

Im goin of the subject abit now but in my eyes Rafa is doing the best he can with the squad we have got, He took us to his heart that why i took him to mine, An to be honest its only the nut jobs who really slate him that i have a go at.

the part in bold is the part i don't get nanny...

see you can look at it in 2 ways...

1st... if the players we have here arent good enough, and the manager was the person who spent 200mill or so bringing them in, isnt it sort of his fault ?

2nd... lets forget the 1st point here for a minute... when you talk about player like Lucas (Brazil U21 captain and plays well with Brazil's first team when picked), Babel (the next Henry? brilliant at U21 level and in Holland..etc), even Keane, Cisse and Bellamy.. can you seriously tell me that you believe that Rafa 'did the best that he can' with those players ? Lets think about it for a second, and just for the record im not a big fan of most of the players up there but i realize that most if not all of them failed miserably in realizing any sort of potential they had under Rafa.. back to the point.. if the players above had signed for say Manutd or Arsenal or Villa, would they have been as ineffective or unwanted at those other clubs ? interms of man-management and improving as players and becoming valuable assets to their sides, wouldnt they have been better off ?

[NANNY RED]

But that is the 64 million dollar question Ace would they, Just because they might have played for another team you cant say they would have been better , Maybe there just not suited to the prem theve had chances an showed nothing imo, We will never know.

[aCe']

But that is the 64 million dollar question Ace would they, Just because they might have played for another team you cant say they would have been better , Maybe there just not suited to the prem theve had chances an showed nothing imo, We will never know.

just asking about your personal opinion nanny ofcourse none of us can say that without doubt they would/wouldnt have been better player/had more of an impact had they signed elsewhere... but based on what you have seen or what you think might be the case...what would you think ?

[Dundalk]

Its a lot closer than i thought

[NANNY RED]

But that is the 64 million dollar question Ace would they, Just because they might have played for another team you cant say they would have been better , Maybe there just not suited to the prem theve had chances an showed nothing imo, We will never know.

just asking about your personal opinion nanny ofcourse none of us can say that without doubt they would/wouldnt have been better player/had more of an impact had they signed elsewhere... but based on what you have seen or what you think might be the case...what would you think ?

Personal opinion there simply not good enough, I think the pace an the physical side of them prem is not for Babel or Lucas, It could of happened anytime though . Anyone of them could of been playing fantastic football for atop team in Europe week in week out . We bring them here an it doesnt suit them. I dont blame Rafa for that i would blame the player on not being suited or ajusting to our game, Its happened to more experienced players than them world class players an all, Shevchenko an Veron to name 2. There just not premiership players.

[aCe']

go... ASAP !

[aCe']

But that is the 64 million dollar question Ace would they, Just because they might have played for another team you cant say they would have been better , Maybe there just not suited to the prem theve had chances an showed nothing imo, We will never know.

just asking about your personal opinion nanny ofcourse none of us can say that without doubt they would/wouldnt have been better player/had more of an impact had they signed elsewhere... but based on what you have seen or what you think might be the case...what would you think ?

Personal opinion there simply not good enough, I think the pace an the physical side of them prem is not for Babel or Lucas, It could of happened anytime though . Anyone of them could of been playing fantastic football for atop team in Europe week in week out . We bring them here an it doesnt suit them. I dont blame Rafa for that i would blame the player on not being suited or ajusting to our game, Its happened to more experienced players than them world class players an all, Shevchenko an Veron to name 2. There just not premiership players.

fair enough... i think you're probably right about Lucas... he's just not good enough for me whether it be in the english, spanish or the chinese league... Cant say the same about Babel though... i think with a different manager he could/should have become a better player in this league... send him to Manu for a couple of seasons and im sure he'll be making some headlines... same with keane and bellamy...not the best around but if utilized then im sure theres much more for them to show than they've done at liverpool under Rafa...

[bigmick]

Quick question, and before you answer it just give it a fraction of thought for a second because it might not be absolutely as clear cut as you think. If we would had signed Ronaldo and not Man Utd, would he have flourished under Rafa like he has at Old Trafford.

[Emerald Red]

I hate to say that 'cos a new guy means new start (from scratch again), means no continuity...

Why? Chelsea scrapped Scolari, but they aren't "starting from scratch".

I'm not saying that a change of manager isn't without it's peril, but it's not like taking everyone one and shooting them.

Scolari? How many players were his at Chelsea? A grand total of three, right? Or was it two? Deco and Bosingwa. Yeah, two players. Yeah, they are starting from scratch alright. The d*ckheads axed the man before he even had the chance to build HIS team. From the sounds of it, we're going the same way. There's like this unwritten rule that a manager has 5 years to win the league otherwise he's sacked and it all repeats again. No manager is going to take over at Liverpool and win the league in the climate the club is in. Not a chance. And those thinking otherwise need to give their heads a shake. The club's been a shambles from top to bottom since the mid 90's.

[NANNY RED]

STAY. STAY, STAY.

does that get 3 votes

[Kharhaz]

Quick question, and before you answer it just give it a fraction of thought for a second because it might not be absolutely as clear cut as you think. If we would had signed Ronaldo and not Man Utd, would he have flourished under Rafa like he has at Old Trafford.

No.

In my attempt to defend rafa before I used the excuse that rafa had to get it right first time when it came to signing players. That excuse cannot be used anymore because of the fact that if that were the case many players wouldnt be here now.

So no, the most telling example I can think of is Crouch. Got off to a bad start, started to score goals, became an England international and off he went as rafa shipped him off.

If we signed Ronaldo, he would be given a season, find his form then... well it would depend on whether rafa liked him or not.

[NANNY RED]

Quick question, and before you answer it just give it a fraction of thought for a second because it might not be absolutely as clear cut as you think. If we would had signed Ronaldo and not Man Utd, would he have flourished under Rafa like he has at Old Trafford.

I actualy believe he would have Mick. Simple