Liverpool FC Forum

[Effes]

It seems now Mick, that if you are critical of the manager - you have to asked for resoned
replies and not resort to name calling.

The thins about being a "plastic" fan if you are critical is pathetic.

This is a place for debate, and should be treated that way.

[TheRedsFan]

I think it is time for him to go, it may upset some but, the team has been treading water for far too long, too may mediocre players and some plain bad ones (take your pick). The team play negative football and fail to make proper clear cut chances game after game. I applaud Rafa for the work he's done but would be happy to bid him adieu.

I concure, I thank him for what he done, I mean he did win 1 CL and 1 F.A Cup, but he did his time, We need a manager with a better vision and that can bring players that will perform, wether we win the CL or not Rafa should go at the end of the season

[Effes]

Undecided.

Ive been critical in the past, but just thought some people could see no wrong in
Rafa's ways. I will decide at the end of the season.

[Emerald Red]

Dossena - cost 7 million and is the current first choice left-back for the current world champions.

Babel - cost 11 million and had a reasonable season in his first year in the EPL, coming off the bench and scoring some important goals. Was a useful impact player. A promising talent in the under 21 Holland and Ajax youth systems. Now plays for the national team. Again, a price you'd expect to pay for "potential" talent. Unfortunately for Babel, he's not making the most of things, but that's not down to Benitez actually signing him, is it? Lazy.

Reira - cost us 8 million. Came on leaps and bounds since his first stay with City and returning to La Liga. Most marked him down as "nothing special" and were left baffled. Obviously Rafa knew a little more than some folk on here and was proven to be a reasonably successful signing so far, bar the past few games where he's looked out of sorts. Still, he was the difference to our flying start of the season. Still needs a bit of time to settle in more IMO. Hardly a dud. We needed a natural left winger, and we got one. End of.

Kuyt - cost 10 million and has easily paid that sum back handsomely. No, I'm not being sarcastic about his looks, I'm talking about the odd "vital" goal he comes up with. Put it this way, he's the reason why we have a season still left as we'd be in the Eufa right now. More than a work horse than a striker, so in that respect he can be considered a "dud" but as a player who contributes to the side, he's been a relative success, though not quite the standard we are after, but like I said, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. We need a 20+ million pound out and out world class striker, not a 10 million pound one. He is utilized for the national team as he is with ours.

Three of the four players are regulars for their respective national sides, so can you say we paid over the odds? With the exception of Babel, perhaps, no. You can't.

Add the combined total of all four players up and you get roughly 36 million for four regular international standard players. Put that into perspective with United who spent 30 million on one player (aged 29) this season, and Man City who spent almost 33 million for Robinho, and you get a sense of perspective. Or at least you should.

Edit - by the way, the fast sale of Keane should suggest that Benitez never wanted him here in the first place. Certainly not for that price.

But Emerald, if they are all as good buys as you suggest, and given the fact that we've spent a comparable amount to Man Utd during Rafa's five year tenure, how do you explain the fact (at least I assume it's a fact) that they have a better squad than us?

I'm not saying they are all good buys. Read it again. I'm saying that you expect to pay the money spent on them. We needed a squad of players. If the budget given to Rafa is restricting, you can hardly expect him to blow it on one so called reputable player who may or may not do the business. What if the said player doesn't and flops? You're left without any cover in other areas of the pitch, then people would be b*tching about Rafa's lack of signings instead of so called bad ones. Take a look at our left back situation earlier in the season. We were left short there. What if Dossena wasn't bought? We'd only have Insua for cover.

I'll rephrase: Dossena is a goat, we can all agree; Babel has bags of potential, but is wasteful; Reira is a decent left-winger. Good buy IMO; and Kuyt has proven his worth for the money spent. He was quickly recognized not to be the goal machine touted, so he's been "put to use" in other areas because he has other useful attributes that he can bring to the team. If a quality right sided player and second striker is found, no doubt Kuyt would be benched more, as I think he would still be a quality asset to the squad as a very good squad player who's energy could be used in certain scenarios coming from the bench.

[redbeergoggles]

Rafa has paid decent enough money for: Dossena, Babel, Lucas, Reira and Kuyt and they are all ...duds. Has had limited success in the transfer market. He was given £20m for Keane only to employ him weirdly or not at all. Yeah the board are a bunch of shisters but you have to question some of Rafa's signings.

Dossena - cost 7 million and is the current first choice left-back for the current world champions.

Babel - cost 11 million and had a reasonable season in his first year in the EPL, coming off the bench and scoring some important goals. Was a useful impact player. A promising talent in the under 21 Holland and Ajax youth systems. Now plays for the national team. Again, a price you'd expect to pay for "potential" talent. Unfortunately for Babel, he's not making the most of things, but that's not down to Benitez actually signing him, is it? Lazy.

Reira - cost us 8 million. Came on leaps and bounds since his first stay with City and returning to La Liga. Most marked him down as "nothing special" and were left baffled. Obviously Rafa knew a little more than some folk on here and was proven to be a reasonably successful signing so far, bar the past few games where he's looked out of sorts. Still, he was the difference to our flying start of the season. Still needs a bit of time to settle in more IMO. Hardly a dud. We needed a natural left winger, and we got one. End of.

Kuyt - cost 10 million and has easily paid that sum back handsomely. No, I'm not being sarcastic about his looks, I'm talking about the odd "vital" goal he comes up with. Put it this way, he's the reason why we have a season still left as we'd be in the Eufa right now. More than a work horse than a striker, so in that respect he can be considered a "dud" but as a player who contributes to the side, he's been a relative success, though not quite the standard we are after, but like I said, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. We need a 20+ million pound out and out world class striker, not a 10 million pound one. He is utilized for the national team as he is with ours.

Three of the four players are regulars for their respective national sides, so can you say we paid over the odds? With the exception of Babel, perhaps, no. You can't.

Add the combined total of all four players up and you get roughly 36 million for four regular international standard players. Put that into perspective with United who spent 30 million on one player (aged 29) this season, and Man City who spent almost 33 million for Robinho, and you get a sense of perspective. Or at least you should.

Edit - by the way, the fast sale of Keane should suggest that Benitez never wanted him here in the first place. Certainly not for that price.

Good post fella ,decent and honest appraisal.

[tonyeh]

If Benitez had had his "choice" validated in the Summer, we would have spent 18 million and swapped Finnan for Gareth Barry. I have to ask, what the hell would Barry have really added to our current squad/season?

18 Million for Gareth Barry? Me arse.

As far as I'm concerned Parry (or whoever) was absolutely correct to deny Benitez that kind of money to waste.

The fact is no manager gets every penny for every signing he wants and Benitez is no exception. Another fact is that even if he did, he'd STILL come up up short because his approach to the game is wrong from beginning to end.

You don't even know what you're talking about. Gareth Barry can either be played centrally in the middle, left back, or even left midfield. Benitez is a manager who likes players that can play in at least two positions for tactical reasons. If the deal for Barry had have went through, then I doubt people would be moaning about players like Lucas or Dessena being sh*t because they wouldn't have gotten half the games they have this season due to Barry filling in those roles. I'd take Barry over Dossena and Lucas any day of the week. Dossena would probably not even be here if Barry was signed.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Gareth Barry is not worth 18 million + defender any day of the week and it was the correct decision to say no to that.

[bigmick]

It could be a lot worse though Eff. I had a look on RAWK yesterday, and there's no question that I'd last about three posts on there. I'd disappear under a barrage of "feck off you c..."s and get banned for the privilage as well. Now I know there are probably quite a few who wish this forum would go the same way (where I'm concerned anyway) but I cannot understand for the life of me why people get so worked up about it.

It wouldn't even be so bad if we were sweeping all before us and someone called for the managers head. You'd think they were on a wind up then, and you might get fired up. Now though, even the most ardent, loyal, faithful sopporter of the manager must surely accept that there is some foundation for legitimate debate at least? I find their animosity and open antagionism like many things in life as I get older, completely mystifying.

[Emerald Red]

For the benefit of this club he should stay. No other manager is going to walk through those gates and suddenly win us the title in a season. It won't be "his" team, and therefor big bucks will need to be dished out. Big bucks we don't have. Scholari anyone? Sure Chelsea have a brilliant squad. Better than ours without doubt. But it wasn't Scolari's Chelsea, was it? No.

[heimdall]

Dossena - cost 7 million and is the current first choice left-back for the current world champions.

Babel - cost 11 million and had a reasonable season in his first year in the EPL, coming off the bench and scoring some important goals. Was a useful impact player. A promising talent in the under 21 Holland and Ajax youth systems. Now plays for the national team. Again, a price you'd expect to pay for "potential" talent. Unfortunately for Babel, he's not making the most of things, but that's not down to Benitez actually signing him, is it? Lazy.

Reira - cost us 8 million. Came on leaps and bounds since his first stay with City and returning to La Liga. Most marked him down as "nothing special" and were left baffled. Obviously Rafa knew a little more than some folk on here and was proven to be a reasonably successful signing so far, bar the past few games where he's looked out of sorts. Still, he was the difference to our flying start of the season. Still needs a bit of time to settle in more IMO. Hardly a dud. We needed a natural left winger, and we got one. End of.

Kuyt - cost 10 million and has easily paid that sum back handsomely. No, I'm not being sarcastic about his looks, I'm talking about the odd "vital" goal he comes up with. Put it this way, he's the reason why we have a season still left as we'd be in the Eufa right now. More than a work horse than a striker, so in that respect he can be considered a "dud" but as a player who contributes to the side, he's been a relative success, though not quite the standard we are after, but like I said, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. We need a 20+ million pound out and out world class striker, not a 10 million pound one. He is utilized for the national team as he is with ours.

Three of the four players are regulars for their respective national sides, so can you say we paid over the odds? With the exception of Babel, perhaps, no. You can't.

Add the combined total of all four players up and you get roughly 36 million for four regular international standard players. Put that into perspective with United who spent 30 million on one player (aged 29) this season, and Man City who spent almost 33 million for Robinho, and you get a sense of perspective. Or at least you should.

Edit - by the way, the fast sale of Keane should suggest that Benitez never wanted him here in the first place. Certainly not for that price.

But Emerald, if they are all as good buys as you suggest, and given the fact that we've spent a comparable amount to Man Utd during Rafa's five year tenure, how do you explain the fact (at least I assume it's a fact) that they have a better squad than us?

I'm not saying they are all good buys. Read it again. I'm saying that you expect to pay the money spent on them. We needed a squad of players. If the budget given to Rafa is restricting, you can hardly expect him to blow it on one so called reputable player who may or may not do the business. What if the said player doesn't and flops? You're left without any cover in other areas of the pitch, then people would be b*tching about Rafa's lack of signings instead of so called bad ones. Take a look at our left back situation earlier in the season. We were left short there. What if Dossena wasn't bought? We'd only have Insua for cover.

I'll rephrase: Dossena is a goat, we can all agree; Babel has bags of potential, but is wasteful; Reira is a decent left-winger. Good buy IMO; and Kuyt has proven his worth for the money spent. He was quickly recognized not to be the goal machine touted, so he's been "put to use" in other areas because he has other useful attributes that he can bring to the team. If a quality right sided player and second striker is found, no doubt Kuyt would be benched more, as I think he would still be a quality asset to the squad as a very good squad player who's energy could be used in certain scenarios coming from the bench.

I don't understand the relevance of them playing for their national teams, I'm only concerned with how well they play for LFC and I'm afraid they don't. I would much rather that instead of signing lots of players this summer Rafa had focussed on getting 2 wingers,that is all we really needed. We have to be a bit more like Arsenal and bring the youngsters through, especially if we have limited funds. Players like Darby and Insua could have come into the full back poistions, yes it would have been a bit shaky but with our two new top notch wingers it would have helped them to settle in. I have never agreed with Rafa's scatter gun approach and have always preferred the way Whiskey nose and Wenger have been far more relaxed and composed in just making a few signings every year.

[Emerald Red]

If Benitez had had his "choice" validated in the Summer, we would have spent 18 million and swapped Finnan for Gareth Barry. I have to ask, what the hell would Barry have really added to our current squad/season?

18 Million for Gareth Barry? Me arse.

As far as I'm concerned Parry (or whoever) was absolutely correct to deny Benitez that kind of money to waste.

The fact is no manager gets every penny for every signing he wants and Benitez is no exception. Another fact is that even if he did, he'd STILL come up up short because his approach to the game is wrong from beginning to end.

You don't even know what you're talking about. Gareth Barry can either be played centrally in the middle, left back, or even left midfield. Benitez is a manager who likes players that can play in at least two positions for tactical reasons. If the deal for Barry had have went through, then I doubt people would be moaning about players like Lucas or Dessena being sh*t because they wouldn't have gotten half the games they have this season due to Barry filling in those roles. I'd take Barry over Dossena and Lucas any day of the week. Dossena would probably not even be here if Barry was signed.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Gareth Barry is not worth 18 million + defender any day of the week and it was the correct decision to say no to that.

He's Villa's captain. Has been for some time. He's also a pivotal player for them and was easily their player of the season for about three years running. It was Villa's valuation price to put us off going for him for cheaper. It didn't work. Benitez obviously seen something in him that you and I don't, after all, he is a manager of one of the biggest clubs in the world and would know these things. Was Carrick worth his 18 million valuation? Was Hargreaves worth his? Fact is, in this climate, if you want English born international players, you pay more for them.

[shakey]

If im honest,im now starting to have doubts on Rafas ability to lead us to win the Prem 

Just some of his decisions etc ie keep playing the likes of Lucas!
The treatment of some players(Crouch/Keane etc)-loss of money on players,selling of Keane without back up.
Wanting/willing to sell Alonso?!

Playing players out of positions,rotation.subs etc baffling @ times!!
Outbursts over contract etc when he should be keeping it in house, plus he should be earning a new 1.
Cant say the board hasnt given him money=200 plus mill.

Waste of transfer money on sh#te players.
hate to say it but likes of Villa/Everton have spent less & are not that far behind us.

Hell i thought i was undecided until i re-read my reply lol

[Emerald Red]

Dossena - cost 7 million and is the current first choice left-back for the current world champions.

Babel - cost 11 million and had a reasonable season in his first year in the EPL, coming off the bench and scoring some important goals. Was a useful impact player. A promising talent in the under 21 Holland and Ajax youth systems. Now plays for the national team. Again, a price you'd expect to pay for "potential" talent. Unfortunately for Babel, he's not making the most of things, but that's not down to Benitez actually signing him, is it? Lazy.

Reira - cost us 8 million. Came on leaps and bounds since his first stay with City and returning to La Liga. Most marked him down as "nothing special" and were left baffled. Obviously Rafa knew a little more than some folk on here and was proven to be a reasonably successful signing so far, bar the past few games where he's looked out of sorts. Still, he was the difference to our flying start of the season. Still needs a bit of time to settle in more IMO. Hardly a dud. We needed a natural left winger, and we got one. End of.

Kuyt - cost 10 million and has easily paid that sum back handsomely. No, I'm not being sarcastic about his looks, I'm talking about the odd "vital" goal he comes up with. Put it this way, he's the reason why we have a season still left as we'd be in the Eufa right now. More than a work horse than a striker, so in that respect he can be considered a "dud" but as a player who contributes to the side, he's been a relative success, though not quite the standard we are after, but like I said, you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. We need a 20+ million pound out and out world class striker, not a 10 million pound one. He is utilized for the national team as he is with ours.

Three of the four players are regulars for their respective national sides, so can you say we paid over the odds? With the exception of Babel, perhaps, no. You can't.

Add the combined total of all four players up and you get roughly 36 million for four regular international standard players. Put that into perspective with United who spent 30 million on one player (aged 29) this season, and Man City who spent almost 33 million for Robinho, and you get a sense of perspective. Or at least you should.

Edit - by the way, the fast sale of Keane should suggest that Benitez never wanted him here in the first place. Certainly not for that price.

But Emerald, if they are all as good buys as you suggest, and given the fact that we've spent a comparable amount to Man Utd during Rafa's five year tenure, how do you explain the fact (at least I assume it's a fact) that they have a better squad than us?

I'm not saying they are all good buys. Read it again. I'm saying that you expect to pay the money spent on them. We needed a squad of players. If the budget given to Rafa is restricting, you can hardly expect him to blow it on one so called reputable player who may or may not do the business. What if the said player doesn't and flops? You're left without any cover in other areas of the pitch, then people would be b*tching about Rafa's lack of signings instead of so called bad ones. Take a look at our left back situation earlier in the season. We were left short there. What if Dossena wasn't bought? We'd only have Insua for cover.

I'll rephrase: Dossena is a goat, we can all agree; Babel has bags of potential, but is wasteful; Reira is a decent left-winger. Good buy IMO; and Kuyt has proven his worth for the money spent. He was quickly recognized not to be the goal machine touted, so he's been "put to use" in other areas because he has other useful attributes that he can bring to the team. If a quality right sided player and second striker is found, no doubt Kuyt would be benched more, as I think he would still be a quality asset to the squad as a very good squad player who's energy could be used in certain scenarios coming from the bench.

I don't understand the relevance of them playing for their national teams, I'm only concerned with how well they play for LFC and I'm afraid they don't. I would much rather that instead of signing lots of players this summer Rafa had focussed on getting 2 wingers,that is all we really needed. We have to be a bit more like Arsenal and bring the youngsters through, especially if we have limited funds. Players like Darby and Insua could have come into the full back poistions, yes it would have been a bit shaky but with our two new top notch wingers it would have helped them to settle in. I have never agreed with Rafa's scatter gun approach and have always preferred the way Whiskey nose and Wenger have been far more relaxed and composed in just making a few signings every year.

If you don't understand the relevance of what a player cost due to being a regular international player, then you shouldn't be on a football forum. It only takes a player to perform brilliant a few times for their country to hike their value. That's a fact. Of course it's f*cking relevant.

And according to you, we only needed two wingers in the summer? Bollox. We clearly needed fullbacks, a right and left winger, and a decent center forward. Hence the signings that were made. We clearly still need at least one decent full back, and a right winger, and center forward seeing Keane was flogged.

[heimdall]

Why am I not automatically in the "For the love of God just GO" camp, have I not been clear enough?? 

[Dundalk]

Well shakey whats it to be?

[tonyeh]

If Benitez had had his "choice" validated in the Summer, we would have spent 18 million and swapped Finnan for Gareth Barry. I have to ask, what the hell would Barry have really added to our current squad/season?

18 Million for Gareth Barry? Me arse.

As far as I'm concerned Parry (or whoever) was absolutely correct to deny Benitez that kind of money to waste.

The fact is no manager gets every penny for every signing he wants and Benitez is no exception. Another fact is that even if he did, he'd STILL come up up short because his approach to the game is wrong from beginning to end.

You don't even know what you're talking about. Gareth Barry can either be played centrally in the middle, left back, or even left midfield. Benitez is a manager who likes players that can play in at least two positions for tactical reasons. If the deal for Barry had have went through, then I doubt people would be moaning about players like Lucas or Dessena being sh*t because they wouldn't have gotten half the games they have this season due to Barry filling in those roles. I'd take Barry over Dossena and Lucas any day of the week. Dossena would probably not even be here if Barry was signed.

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Gareth Barry is not worth 18 million + defender any day of the week and it was the correct decision to say no to that.

He's Villa's captain. Has been for some time. He's also a pivotal player for them and was easily their player of the season for about three years running. It was Villa's valuation price to put us off going for him for cheaper. It didn't work. Benitez obviously seen something in him that you and I don't, after all, he is a manager of one of the biggest clubs in the world and would know these things. Was Carrick worth his 18 million valuation? Was Hargreaves worth his? Fact is, in this climate, if you want English born international players, you pay more for them.

Hmmmm...Benitez also "saw" something in Dossena and Degen too. That doesn't fill me with any confidence, like much of Mr Benitez' decisions these days.

The fact still remains that there is no way in the world that Barry is worth that money (plus Steve Finnan) and whoever said no to forwarding that money was bang on, imo.

It that kind of decision making that makes me shudder at the thought of Benitez havig full control over transfers.