Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

To suggest a manager who hasn't won a game convincingly since December 2008 isn't "the real problem at the club" is either naive, or relating to a completely different issue altogether. Deflecting focus onto the owners who don't pick the team, signings, tactics etc isn't all that clever, the same manager who beat Chelsea and Man Utd and can win games is using the same players who can't beat Wigan, Man City, Hull, Stoke (home or away), the bitters etc.

Are you seriously saying that you think Rafa has been able to go out and get the players he wants? If he'd been backed to the hilt then the quality of our squad would be significantly better than it is now as we'd have gone for quality over quantity.

I'd like to see the list that Rafa presented to the board each season and the players that he actually got from it. How many did he want even 'if' they where his 2nd or 3rd choice and who the board chose for him 'if' any?

[Owzat]

The shear arrogance of you people is astounding ,

Forgive us lord for we have sinned, how dare we DISCUSS the situation at the club we support and refer to us as "you people"

I think it's arrogant for someone to tell a whole forum what is and isn't arrogant, acceptable etc. And how arrogant of you to look down and tell us we should get behind the team when we do, just because we discuss it in a forum doesn't mean we don't.

Maybe it's arrogance on your part, maybe it's ignorance. I don't care. But don't presume to tell any of "us people" what to do and how to do it 

[Owzat]

Are you seriously saying that you think Rafa has been able to go out and get the players he wants? If he'd been backed to the hilt then the quality of our squad would be significantly better than it is now as we'd have gone for quality over quantity.

I don't presume to know who Rafa wants, who he's asked for and really don't see how it matters since it's a question of who we have not who Rafa wants or doesn't have. I find it ridiculous people can discuss such issues based on information they can't possibly have or know is accurate. The situation is as it is, if you want a club that gives its manager unlimited funds then I suggest you go support another club. I know exactly where you're trying to go, it's been done to death and I didn't get into it before, because it's a pointless argument. Would have, should have, could have. It boils down to Rafa's tactics, what he's bought and so on BASED ON WHAT HE HAS AT HIS DISPOSAL. We're not criticising Rafa for not beating everyone 4-0 ie the means at his disposal are factored in

I'd like to see the list that Rafa presented to the board each season and the players that he actually got from it. How many did he want even 'if' they where his 2nd or 3rd choice and who the board chose for him 'if' any?

I couldn't care less, he had £20.3m and spent it on Keane, £11.5m and spent it on Babel. We could all guess who was on "the list", doesn't matter if he didn't get his 1st or 2nd choice, who says that has to be? This club doesn't have the resources to build a "dream team", Citeh do and even they're having a hard time getting their 1st or 2nd choices and yet it doesn't stop them getting criticised. As I said, this is a pointless argument/angle, based on a lot of supposition and one of which is that the club could give Rafa the money for his "dream team". He spent £40m in the summer, more than that last season and a lot of it was squandered, no point debating what he hasn't got or what he wanted, because we don't know how realistic that wishlist was, and we're judging him on what he's doing with what he's got. Does he need his 1st or 2nd choice XIs to beat Stoke, Hull, Fulham, etc?

And the most pointless part of hiding behind that particular argument is do YOU "seriously think" it's going to be any different if Rafa hangs around? MON isn't my favourite manager, but he's getting more out of spending less than Rafa, and I bet his aren't his 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th choices. Same goes for Wenger, hands will be tied according to which club you're at so get used to it

[puroresu]

To suggest a manager who hasn't won a game convincingly since December 2008 isn't "the real problem at the club" is either naive, or relating to a completely different issue altogether. Deflecting focus onto the owners who don't pick the team, signings, tactics etc isn't all that clever, the same manager who beat Chelsea and Man Utd and can win games is using the same players who can't beat Wigan, Man City, Hull, Stoke (home or away), the bitters etc.

Are you seriously saying that you think Rafa has been able to go out and get the players he wants? If he'd been backed to the hilt then the quality of our squad would be significantly better than it is now as we'd have gone for quality over quantity.

I'd like to see the list that Rafa presented to the board each season and the players that he actually got from it. How many did he want even 'if' they where his 2nd or 3rd choice and who the board chose for him 'if' any?

How many managers get to go and buy who they want?  Rafa knew the situation at LFC before he came here.  He knew we wasnt flush with money and knew he would have to work to a smaller budget than a chelsea or Man Utd.  But he still came here.  While he may not of been able to buy at the top end of the market it still doesnt excuse the money wasted on others.

[redbeergoggles]

Owzat, I agree Rafa has many flaws. The timing of his substitutions is one of my pet hates but to suggest that he is the real problem at the club is complete nonsense.

Out of all the people involved in senior positions at the club Rafa is the least of the problems.

Our position has changed from seven points ahead of the mancs after same games played, to seven points behind the mancs after same games played.

To suggest a manager who hasn't won a game convincingly since December 2008 isn't "the real problem at the club" is either naive, or relating to a completely different issue altogether. Deflecting focus onto the owners who don't pick the team, signings, tactics etc isn't all that clever, the same manager who beat Chelsea and Man Utd and can win games is using the same players who can't beat Wigan, Man City, Hull, Stoke (home or away), the bitters etc.

Or if you're implying that Rafa's comments about "control" and possible constraints are true and that's affecting him, then isn't that him being unprofessional? He's paid to do a job, if he doesn't like the conditions then he should do what a couple of other managers have done this season and back up words with actions. I'm not overly happy about the owners and the risks, but I'm not going to use that to excuse Rafa as a manager.

Neigh, neigh and thrice neigh. I agree with whoever said that Liverpool won't win the Premiership while Rafa is at the club, even if it was that brum plank Collymore who said it. It's no wonder Rafa airs so many of his views in public, he has a willing audience lapping his words up. We're not worse off in terms of a football team than before, we've not had to sell our best players and bring in the rubbish Rafa has on the cheap (which they weren't) He has the means to beat teams we're not, and he's not. I'm not that interested in off-pitch politics, I won't accept their use to excuse a manager who has shown many failings - some more provable than others

We all go into our chosen profession with the understanding our employers will be fair and and show no bias ,but its never going to happen is it ,owners and employers alike in every form of business can fill a man full of anxiety and paranoia ,you try working in a job were the owners are publicly undermining the manager and scheming behind the scenes for your removal .
In all honesty tell me you could work competently in that type of pressure enviroment ,Then consider who is naive .

[Owzat]

We all go into our chosen profession with the understanding our employers will be fair and and show no bias ,but its never going to happen is it ,owners and employers alike in every form of business can fill a man full of anxiety and paranoia ,you try working in a job were the owners are publicly undermining the manager and scheming behind the scenes for your removal .
In all honesty tell me you could work competently in that type of pressure enviroment ,Then consider who is naive .

I'm well aware that there can be issues that can affect a job, I know it from personal experience. But I still did the best job possible and didn't hide behind those excuses, you have to put them to one side and get on with it. If you think any employee can use an issue as an excuse for poor work then you're naive, if he feels he can't work in those conditions then he should walk and stop using them as an excuse.

[redbeergoggles]

The shear arrogance of you people is astounding ,

Forgive us lord for we have sinned, how dare we DISCUSS the situation at the club we support and refer to us as "you people"

I think it's arrogant for someone to tell a whole forum what is and isn't arrogant, acceptable etc. And how arrogant of you to look down and tell us we should get behind the team when we do, just because we discuss it in a forum doesn't mean we don't.

Maybe it's arrogance on your part, maybe it's ignorance. I don't care. But don't presume to tell any of "us people" what to do and how to do it 

The relevant word in your post being SUPPORT .
contradictory dont you concur fella

[Judge]

watching sky sports news (not 5 live lakes ), it was said rafa might quit over his contract talks, or lack of them?? worrying news

however, i am finding some of rafa's prematch talks a little wishy washy. for example - he says we will try to win this game, rather than saying that we will push the game for a win and force the other team into mistakes by playing good direct football!! That would sound much better than we will try!!

there is fine line between negative comments and positive ones - but i believe his team belief is a little lacking of late. Just an observation in what the man says. I understand there are probably internal wranglings, but his performance in front of the media needs to be a little more positive etc.

[loopyliverpool]

"The shear arrogance of you people is astounding ,Liverpool are second and the closest team to the Mancs not because there an exceptional team ,but because we have an extremely astute manager and tactician , Who most teams with any aspirations would proffer their own granny in exchange".

People keep on going on about being second as some kind of achievement!! Its not and never will be acceptable. We should be winning championships not folding tamely at home to Man City with twelve games to go. If people are content with second best and are moved to protest at any criticism of Rafa, dispite of the clear evidence to the contrary, I suggest the best interests of the club are not being served.

[112-1077774096]

I think that most are probably feeling too depressed to post at the moment. I know I am. I've never particularly liked this 'pro's' and 'anti's' talk but it's hardly surprising if those who fully support the manager are subdued this morning. I don't recall seeing too many posts from the likes of Peewee or the Rock (and others who aren't keen on the manager) when we were beating Chelsea to go top of the league.

then look harder and you will find them

[redbeergoggles]

Would you consider the bile being directed at Rafa over the top ? or well deserved ,would you not agree that the posts calling Benitez a c**t are indeed repetitive ,and the posts praising the man from saving us from mediocrity, and not walking away and leaving us in the reliable hands of Mr Parry in the extreme minority

[Owzat]

"The shear arrogance of you people is astounding ,Liverpool are second and the closest team to the Mancs not because there an exceptional team ,but because we have an extremely astute manager and tactician , Who most teams with any aspirations would proffer their own granny in exchange".

People keep on going on about being second as some kind of achievement!! Its not and never will be acceptable. We should be winning championships not folding tamely at home to Man City with twelve games to go. If people are content with second best and are moved to protest at any criticism of Rafa, dispite of the clear evidence to the contrary, I suggest the best interests of the club are not being served.

I agree to some extent, I think to presume we should win the title as some kind of right might be arrogant.

But we haven't finished second yet, there's time left to go and we're not exactly sinking like a stone, but we're not exactly in great form either.

I'm trying to maintain judgement on the situation based on what the manager does and with the players available, not "second or third choices" or in spite of "boardroom shenanigan" - that argument of course went quiet when we picked up 32 points from 39 at the end of last season and when we started unbeaten this season and last. Obviously these background issues at boardroom level, Rafa's contract and having only his second or third choices affects the team only every now and then - funny that.

I guess Parry was doing something that affected Rafa, and consequently the team, in the first half in Istanbul, but he stopped doing it at half time. Zonal marking only doesn't work when we concede goals, when opposition players miss or we get away with it then it works perfectly.

[Bammo]

"The shear arrogance of you people is astounding ,Liverpool are second and the closest team to the Mancs not because there an exceptional team ,but because we have an extremely astute manager and tactician , Who most teams with any aspirations would proffer their own granny in exchange".

People keep on going on about being second as some kind of achievement!! Its not and never will be acceptable. We should be winning championships not folding tamely at home to Man City with twelve games to go. If people are content with second best and are moved to protest at any criticism of Rafa, dispite of the clear evidence to the contrary, I suggest the best interests of the club are not being served.

So we should sack rafa if he fails to win the league?

And if his replacement doesn't win it next year...sack him too?

If wego down that road we end up like some of the spanish teams, giving managers weeks to establish title-winning sides rather than the years it takes.

Rafa is flawed. No doubt about it and I doubt anyone is saying he is perfect. Then again Fergie is flawed, Mourinho (who seems to be number 1 choice for replacement on here) is flawed. Every manager is flawed in some way!!

It's a common criticism of the media to say that we rely too much on Gerrard and Torres and without them we're nothing. That's rubbish. The system we play: 4-2-3-1 relies upon fullbacks to provide width. Recently, and I'm sure this will come as a shock to you all  our fullbacks haven't provided the quality we need. Dossena has discovered that he can go forward and cross it. Unfortunately 90% of his crosses end up in the stands. On the right, Arbeloa gets forwards but he's much more defensively minded.

Because of this, the width is needed to be provided by the wide men of the 3 (Riera and Kuyt). Sounds simple but they are making their runs from inside to out. Anyone who has played on the wing can say it's easier to start wide - hugging the touchline.

Until we get fullbacks who can perform consistently well in an attacking role we may be better switching to 4 in midfield. Sacrifice Gerrard's attacking role for the good of the team. This is what I'd play next league game:

                     Reina

Arbeloa    Carra     Skrtel/Agger   Insua

Benny Noon  Alonso   Gerrard    Riera

                  Kuyt     
                           Torres

[redbeergoggles]

"The shear arrogance of you people is astounding ,Liverpool are second and the closest team to the Mancs not because there an exceptional team ,but because we have an extremely astute manager and tactician , Who most teams with any aspirations would proffer their own granny in exchange".

People keep on going on about being second as some kind of achievement!! Its not and never will be acceptable. We should be winning championships not folding tamely at home to Man City with twelve games to go. If people are content with second best and are moved to protest at any criticism of Rafa, dispite of the clear evidence to the contrary, I suggest the best interests of the club are not being served.

I was at Anfield yesterday fella ,and have been for the best part of my adult life so to suggest that Im content with second is a non starter ,but for us realists who watch this current team its sadly the only crumbs we can cling to at this present time ..
The manager and a handful of players are worldclass its the structure and ineptitude of the board thats rocking this great club from its foundations

[loopyliverpool]

Rafa has done some amazing things which will go down in folklore. I just feel the team is well short of being title winners and as that team is in his image he has to take some responsibility. It woudn't be so bad if we were still battling the Mancs with three/four games to go be we're not and dare I suggest that the gap is more likely to widen than to close. Lets remember that Rafa said he wanted five years! Have we progressed that much? Thanks Rafa you brought some great times, we love you but, time up amigo.