Liverpool FC Forum

[tithead]

What did most Liverpool fans expect (expect, not hope for) domestically at the start of the season? Also, how did yous expect to do in Europe.

IMO, domestically, yous have been a failure. The press had yous written up pre-season to win the title this year, which again yous have failed to do.

The same press that considered the top 3 "Arsenal, Manchester United and Chelsea" the top 3?

Press are press, and as much as they talk a lot of football, they're often clueless. LFC won the CL in 2005 and many thought that everything was done in one year. The next season the team kept improving, and LFC was closer to Chelsea than the previous season. So people just thought "ah, if the progress is linear, then they should win the league next season".

And since we're passionate, we bought that. But Rafa warned to all of us that would be very difficult. We didn't listen (and I include myself). Once again we hadn't ready the squad in summer, the signing ups reached late, and some of them in winter. So the fact many people EXPECTED to LFC win the league, doesn't mean they were right. Thus, no underachievement.

I still think it's an underachievement  based on last years league position and point tally.

[bunglemark2]

bunglemark - question for you.

Do you reckon when clubs approach players they want to sign, that these players consider, among many other factors, the calibre of future team mates? Of course Champions football is important, the league is important, financial status, etc.

I'm sure they do....Just like they look outside of CL success, they look to domestic success. The latter indicates consistency, resilience, a squad mentality.....Sadly, most of these have been lacking.....

But, I'm feeling a bit better after that rant. I want better for next season...And for those who (probably rightly so) say I haven't been there in person often enough, I fully intend to change that next season

[66-1112520797]

Saddly I agree with you Nevillehead, we have underachieved. 

[Ciggy]

Vast improvements are needed next season we need a few world class players also, and a striker that finds the net on most occasions.
Need a better right winger even though Pennant has improved he hasnt played as much as someone like say Simao or Alves would have had they joined.
Gerrard must play in CM next season, just how Rafa is going to keep them all happy I dont know.
Away from home we have been pathetic this season its not fair on the fans that travel and pay good money to watch that shite.
We have one of the biggest squads in the prem its about time a lot where let go its quality not quantity needed.
And please god that rotation needs to be knocked on the head.
The players are like strangers to each other at times.
Play our best 11 week in week out rotation should only be used when a player is out of form, or injured.

[112-1077774096]

good post bunglemark and it hits the nail squarley on the head, but i have to ask did we underachieve or did we reach our full potential with this squad that we have?  personally im not sure we under achieved, i thing we are just not good enough. we can be good enough in the league but we are not allowed to be because of the managers mentality.

some of the players just are not good enough, gonzalez, zenden, aurellio to name a few, pennant i think is good enough but i think when he first came he felt he wasnt good enough, i think he felt the club was too big for him and when he realised that he deserved to be here he started performing.

i also fear for next season, its well and good having the players (and i hope we sign some world class players) but its no good having them if you are going to shackle them and play them out of position and not to their strenghts

[zarababe]

We havn't won the league for 17 years (right ?) Rafa's just completed his third season so before then it had been 14 years - lets face it he inherited an average squad and won the CL in that season. The following season improvements in the league with a 3rd place finish and fa cup win. (there are only 4 trophies to be won right?)

This season clearly disaapointed that we were not able to challenge for the title, something many of us and many pundits expected - but we fisnished 3rd and are in the biggest club competition final in the world - again. Many of the reasons for that have already been ststae in this thread.

So yes league-wise it has been disappointing - but with the new money and hopefully new signings next year could be the real deal !

So prognosis - if I was writing a school report on Rafa it would go someting like:

Much improvment required in the league - quality striker and world class player able to take-on opponents required. Fantastic progress in the world's most famous and prestigious club competion - and lets stop rotation at least for the first few months of the season.

[bigmick]

What a great topic starter that is, full of thought provoking points. I know I'm like a stuck record, but if anything our success in the Champions League (and it's success choose whether we win it or not now, though obviously I hope we do) makes me feel even worse about our league form. We've beaten Chelsea at home and lost away, should have beaten Man Utd at home, and lost away and beaten Arsenal at home and lost away. It's not against the good teams that we've lost it, it's p!ssing around with a half strength team against the lesser lights, principly in the first six weeks of the season that cost us a shot at the title this time around.
On the way to the Champions League final we've put out the reigning Spanish and European Champions, and we've put out the reigning English Champions over two legs. Don't tell me we haven't got the players.

I wonder, and it has already been mentioned earlier. If we play Sunderland Away first game up next season will we rotate? And if we do and fail to win, will the people on here say I am over-reacting and being a knee-jerker for saying it is absolutely ridiculous?
Will the manager (who I have the utmost respect for and think he's done a fantastic job of rebulding the club) give us a chance of winning the Premeirship next season? Because it is my heartfelt belief that we could have gone very very close this season had we not have thrown it away in the first few games.

[112-1077774096]

I wonder, and it has already been mentioned earlier. If we play Sunderland Away first game up next season will we rotate? And if we do and fail to win, will the people on here say I am over-reacting and being a knee-jerker for saying it is absolutely ridiculous?

you wont hear that from me mick as i was saying the same thing at the start of this season, some of us have been proved to be right while others search for excuses

[account deleted by request]

Progress is based on how you do in the league not in cups. While I wouldn't like to diminish Liverpool's CL run, if you take that out of the equation we have failed miserably to progress. We spent the best part of £30million to finish with less points, and more importantly poorer football than the previous season.

Ignoring the top two, how much have we improved over the rest of our other rivals, remembering that Arsenal have been without Henry for much of the season etc etc. The truth is we haven't , we have taken a big step back.

Problems became apparent even in preseason, we didn't look like a team that was going to make an impact and we didn't.

Last season if we hadn' won the FA cup we could still look back on the season with some satisfaction. This season without the CL would be a very disappointing one from all aspects.

Kewell who has been out all season comes back and looks on a totally different level than the wide players we have brought in this season. How much mediocrity have we now become accustomed to this season?

Kuyt gets praised for how hard he works, while we avoid mentioning the fact that he hardly ever has a shot (never mind scores a goal!), has a distinct lack of pace and needs 3 touches to control a ball. 

Xabi plays poorly and we get "Ah, but its all the unseen things he does that make him great, anyone that can't see that must be clueless". B0llocks! when Xabi was playing well it wasn't all the "unseen or unnoticed" parts of his game that were being praised, it was his sublime passing, well timed tackles and his vision that were getting him the praise. Funny how Rafa seemed to agree with the people that said he was playing poorly ( maybe Rafa missed all the "unnoticed" stuff as well )

Anyway our season has been saved by the CL, and no matter what anyone says, thats a great achievement, now all we have to do is win the fker, come back next season and win the League.

As I have said before its our away form thats cost us any sort of a challenge for the league, has Rafa only rotated away from home?

[Sabre]

I wonder, and it has already been mentioned earlier. If we play Sunderland Away first game up next season will we rotate? And if we do and fail to win, will the people on here say I am over-reacting and being a knee-jerker for saying it is absolutely ridiculous?

You have never been ridiculous as far as I can remember.

I AM the broken record here, and once again I cross fingers so that we win the championsleague, not only because of the obvious glory it will bring, but because we'll avoid the Maccabi Haifish games. And the problem is not the Maccabi, but that it changes you the whole preseason plan. All of it.

Rotation has worked well through out the season and it should not be the reason for our bad start.

I just ask 3 things for next season:

* A NORMAL PRESEASON WITH NO qualification games
* ALL THE PLAYERS SIGNED IN TIME and no late-time signing ups.
* Players coming fully fit after summer (next year it will be more likely)

* Optionally (to make most of my forum mates happy), don't rotate too much at the start of the season


With all that ingredients, we'll have a good start.

[bigmick]

No question about that one Peewee. To quote the football song "it's all gone quiet over there".
It's actually been quite a surprise to me that I haven't as yet found somebody on here suggesting that we've got to the Champions League final BECAUSE of rotation (players being fresher etc etc). It would of course be utter b0ll0cks to suggest such a thing, but I'm a bit surprised somebody hasn't gone down that route.

No the feeling around here seems to be that our squad and team aren't good enough to challenge over the course of 38 games and I have to say I think it's one of the great urban myths in a football sense. I DO think Agger is good enough, I DO think there is enough goals in our strike force to win the title and I DO think that when we play our best team we are pretty close to anybody. If we were playing man Utd in the final, I'd fancy our chances quietly to be honest. No we haven't got a Ronaldo, or a Rooney but they haven't got a Gerrard either, or a Reina. Once Stu and his band of merry men get hold of it they'll go for this post with a vengance but I maintain there is very little between the top four teams, very little indeed. There is certainly a huge amount less than the table will tell you, "ah but the table doesn't lie", well it fecking does when one of the teams gives everybody a ten point start.

[bunglemark2]

Folks, I'm happy to read the replies, to know that I'm not the only one thinking these thoughts....
I read in other threads links and reports to signings we're allegedly going to make....
Let me give my thoughts on a couple, all constructive, and not knocking for the sake of it...

1. Tevez
Hmmmm, dunno he'd be the right fit. Don't know how the *team* would accommodate a gloryhunter like him. And I reckon Rafa probably wants more of a worker bee than a diva (meant in the honest sense). Besides, players are wise to him now....I reckon a few good kinckings and he'd lose the will to try it on. Mascherano on the other hand - I get a better feeling about him overall
2. Simao
Don't know either. From what I've seen of him (quite a bit) in recent CL seasons, I don't think he'd quite make the cut and thrust of week in/week out drudgery in the Premiership
3. Villa
Fantastic talent, but again perhaps a bit of a diva. That said I haven't seen too much of him, but I do recall he doesn't track back.

So, what are my suggestions ? Hell, I can't think of too many players not already committed to another club. But one who DOES spring to mind is Berbatov. He's a poacher; he has great slight of foot; a great eye for goal; and above all, he works for his goals.....Funnily enough, I like Lennon and Defoe.....
And I think you might see one or two Chelski fringe players looking for an out. Philips - cracking player.....

If you're reading Maureeno - I'm setting the cat among the pigeons....

[112-1077774096]

i agree mick, our strongest line up is on a par with any of the top 4, the problem is how often we didnt play our strongest line up and we were found out too many times. we could see when we played our strongest team how good we actually are when we play attacking football, but we showed too little respect to the smaller teams.

i think a fully fit kewell this season would have made a massive difference.

anyway we will find out next season if he persists with this crazy rotation, but i think rafa now knows that we need the league

[Sabre]

In order not to dissapoint anybody    , I think rotation has helped to finish the season better than other teams. We've played badly the last two or three league games, but obviously because we were saving our best, not actually following a rotation plan.

It might be bóllocks, but it's my opinion. Rotation is good. Some line ups might be wrong, but the idea as a whole is good given the amount of games LFC is playing.

If we were just playing the league, with 1 game per week, then I'd change as few things as possible, but with wednesday games? not rotating is reckless. And FWIW, we do not overrotate comparing with UEFA teams like Osasuna or Sevilla who changed 7 and 8 men from wednesday to Sunday. I guess you'd call that super-rotation. 

[bigmick]

As I have said before its our away form thats cost us any sort of a challenge for the league, has Rafa only rotated away from home?

I agreed with all the post saint apart from this bit. For sure Rafa has rotated at Home as well, but equally for sure it will always have more of an effect away. Similarly, if you can avoid it you wouldn't give a kid his debut away at sheffield United first game up, but at Home when mediocrity has already settled in after christmas shouldn't be a bother.

See people think that some of us are advocating playing the same eleven every single week but I'm certainly not. I am saying though that Zenden in central midfield with Gerrard on the right is not a sensible choice away at Arsenal, or Gerrard wide on the left away at Chelsea is not the way to go, or when Peter Crouch is in the form of his career to rotate him out of that form is not what you are looking for. It doesn't matter which way anybody dresses it up, (and a few well respected posters have gone down the route of posting up the actual teams we selected, number of changes etc etc) nobody will ever convince me that we used our resources sensibly in the first few weeks of this or last season. You quite simply cannot change the team/formation/style and defensive make-up every game and hope to succeed.

Usually when teams have to change their team every week and they underachieve, the manager comes up and says "I don't like to make excuses but our injuries etc etc". We can't even say that as we didn't have lots of injuries, we just had lots of abject silliness.