Liverpool FC Forum

[Madmax]

Is it our system or is it just pure luck of the opposition. Whats happend to our defense in the past two matches. You would'nt expect arsenal to score four on our ground.

Is it pressure??

[matrix]

8  goals  tell me about it,   we played like a side who had to win by 3 goals...   

[Lando_Griffin]

When you attack like we do, you're always risking something on the counter.

Against Arsenal and Chelsea in the scoring form they showed, even 10 men behind the ball would lose goals.

[tubby]

The thing is in those games we have been coming forward so much to get goals we naturally leave ourselves at risk at the back. Also Reina hasn't been that convincing either so those 2 things go hand in hand. I don't think it's anything to worry too much about. We wouldn't have let in 4 if we were sitting back tonight but given our position in the league we had to go for the win and going a goal down first just made the whole night a game of cat and mouse.

[Effes]

It's pretty obvious why/how we conceded 4 against Chelsea.

Tonight was just one of those games, some bad mistakes at the back though.

[maypaxvobiscum]

seems like our ability to score is matched by our inability to not concede. its really frustrating for a liverpool fan but for neutrals the past 2 matches against london oppos must have been really exciting.

[Festy]

Just one word "Fullbacks"

Please buy 2 strong fullbacks Rafa and we'll be on top. Arba and Fabio are not good enough FFS.

[SupitsJonF]

Against Chelsea, it was understandable.  But Arsenal, terrible display of defending.  We did not need to play as reckless as we did, the pressure caused errors (or maybe just luck, doesn't matter as it happened) and the errors being goals.  The back 4 needs to shape up, and get back to clean sheets, because IT IS possible to score 4 and concede 0 or 1, look at Utd and Madrid.  Reina too, he's good but needs his consistency up.  Not much he could of done, but would like to see some sharper performances.

[bigmick]

Well in truth we've played against three good teams over the last couple of weeks (Chelsea twice and Arsenal once) and we've conceded eleven goals so clearly something is going on. I think there are probably a couple of reasons which spring to mind for us suddenly becoming a bit leaky, but it's hard to really nail it down to one cause as in truth it's a collection of things.

Firstly there the first leg of the Champions League where we ran into a bit of a tactical swerve from Hiddink which got round our zonal system, some fairly average defending in those situations, and Drogba/Chelsea on a very good night. I think that Ivanovic aside, they would have caused pretty much anyone a problem that night.

In the second leg, we were pressing on trying to do the impossible and got picked off. We were going at it kamikazi but in truth we didn't have a deal of choice. I don't think FWIW there was anything you could conclude from that game, it was kind of a one off.

That said, the 4-4 one off was followed incredibly by another 4-4. On this occasion, we were undone by individual errors, a good player and once again a pretty gung ho performance.

If I were to summarise the three performances and the problems contained within, I'd be looking at our tendency to get a bit carried away mid match once we hit the front. It's an interesting thought that we led in all three matches but didn't manage to win any of them. Against Chelsea at Home we got the vital goal early but in truth never really looked like we'd keep a clean sheet. In the return leg once they made the much needed tactical changes they turned a 2-0 deficit into a 3-2 lead fairly quick smart. Against Arsenal once we'd overturned the opening goal we didn't manage to keep the game quiet even for a short time.

I think what we are seeing is a result of a team which in truth has been overly defensive (and I know somebody will quote how many goals we've scored but that won't change my opinion) changing into one which is absolutely at the opposite end of the scale. We've gone from playing two holding midfielders to a situation where both Alonso and Masherano are bombing on, Riera isn't bothering to track back, whoever is filling in for Gerrard isn't bothering to come back, and both Aurelio and Arbeoa look likely to score at any moment. It's fantastic to watch and IMHO long overdue, but we need to get a bit more balance to the whole thing I think.

Just because we need to win, it shouldn't mean we need to win 6-3. 1-0 will do just fine thanks, just like at Stamford Bridge once we had gone 2-0 up we should have been sitting. Keep it tight and 2-0 until 15 minutes from the end, then go for the winner which of course another goal would have been. Likewise against Arsenal, get in front and settle down. Defend properly, wake up, keep your wits about you, keep it tight and pick them off. Instead we get caught dawdling on the ball and with an admittedly World Class finish it's 2-2.

I don't blame the manager for the slide, he's probably tearing out whatever hair he's got left worrying about it. It's probably though the inevitable consequence of a sudden change of style for the team, and the fact that we simply aren't used to it. Our central defenders, indeed all the defence are actually being asked to defend without a blanket in front of them and unfortunately so far they aren't coping. That's why the Mancs are able to bomb on from all directions, they have Ferdinand and Vidic ho they can trust to defend. If we are going to play this more expansive style, we might need to look at picking up at least one top class defender, unfortunately it's looking like we are a wee bit short in that area.

[Toffeehater]

Good post by mick

[bunglemark2]

If it weren't for these stupid south american footie competitions, dragging Insua and Leto and all the other young fellas away for weeks at a time, then you'd think at least Insua could slot in for a whole season. That might be one full back position sorted. Don't know what to do about the other side.
As for the centre backs, if it's true that Agger is off at the end of the season then I certainly hope we get a feckin' HUGE pile of cash for him and spend it replacing like-for-like.
Gutted we didn't go after Arshavin but at the time I was put off by all his ar$ing about....

[Owzat]

I just hope that Rafa doesn't decide that we've been too open in the past two matches and curb our approach, I bet he hates it when we concede goals and would rather employ a more measured and controlled approach even if it means we draw 0-0 or 1-1 instead of 4-4.

It was a necessary approach, perhaps not necessary to be quite so open, and it was unfortunate three individuals made pretty awful mistakes that resulted in goals. I've always believed Arbeloa is susceptable defensively, Aurelio is too - although he's looked more reliable this season in fitness and performance. Mascherano is there to win the ball, unfortunately that's about all he is good for and he can't afford silly mistakes to go on top of giving away possession via his below par passing. Obviously you can't blame Mascherano for every goal we concede, nor can he be expected to stop every goal, but his presence doesn't seem to make our defence any more solid than it would be without and if others make mistakes then is his inclusion making that much difference? Even if he could do nothing about any of the goals we've conceded in the past two matches, doesn't that in itself question the point of including someone who is not good enough on the ball, passing or shooting? Maybe his presence doesn't hinder our scoring, but he is one dimensional and he's played in our defeats at spudz, boro, and 10 other draws this season. We've lost five games and drawn 17, Mascherano has played in three defeats and 12 draws - we scored only once in those three defeats and have kept just 14 clean sheets in the 33 games he's played this season. That was our 50th game of the season, we've kept 23 clean sheets so 9 in the 17 games Mascherano hasn't played. Some might point to the 1-3 defeat at home to Chelsea in the CL and Mascherano's absence, but would he have made any difference to a lack of marking in the penalty area for two of their goals?!?!?

I would tend to write the results off as being one of needing to score three goals and caught out pushing for goals, the other as being directly or indirectly down to defensive errors. I hope Rafa sees it the same way and doesn't curb our approach

[Sir Roger]

I just hope that Rafa doesn't decide that we've been too open in the past two matches and curb our approach, I bet he hates it when we concede goals and would rather employ a more measured and controlled approach even if it means we draw 0-0 or 1-1 instead of 4-4.

It was a necessary approach, perhaps not necessary to be quite so open, and it was unfortunate three individuals made pretty awful mistakes that resulted in goals. I've always believed Arbeloa is susceptable defensively, Aurelio is too - although he's looked more reliable this season in fitness and performance. Mascherano is there to win the ball, unfortunately that's about all he is good for and he can't afford silly mistakes to go on top of giving away possession via his below par passing. Obviously you can't blame Mascherano for every goal we concede, nor can he be expected to stop every goal, but his presence doesn't seem to make our defence any more solid than it would be without and if others make mistakes then is his inclusion making that much difference? Even if he could do nothing about any of the goals we've conceded in the past two matches, doesn't that in itself question the point of including someone who is not good enough on the ball, passing or shooting? Maybe his presence doesn't hinder our scoring, but he is one dimensional and he's played in our defeats at spudz, boro, and 10 other draws this season. We've lost five games and drawn 17, Mascherano has played in three defeats and 12 draws - we scored only once in those three defeats and have kept just 14 clean sheets in the 33 games he's played this season. That was our 50th game of the season, we've kept 23 clean sheets so 9 in the 17 games Mascherano hasn't played. Some might point to the 1-3 defeat at home to Chelsea in the CL and Mascherano's absence, but would he have made any difference to a lack of marking in the penalty area for two of their goals?!?!?

I would tend to write the results off as being one of needing to score three goals and caught out pushing for goals, the other as being directly or indirectly down to defensive errors. I hope Rafa sees it the same way and doesn't curb our approach

Agreed
If we take the mancs, villa and blackburn games as examples this is how we should play. Controlled pressure, pressing, pushing on. But with less goals against.
I hope he doesnt slam the brakes on as well
Hull, Newcastle, west ham, west brom are all there for the taking...

[DrPepe]

I just hope that Rafa doesn't decide that we've been too open in the past two matches and curb our approach, I bet he hates it when we concede goals and would rather employ a more measured and controlled approach even if it means we draw 0-0 or 1-1 instead of 4-4.

It was a necessary approach, perhaps not necessary to be quite so open, and it was unfortunate three individuals made pretty awful mistakes that resulted in goals. I've always believed Arbeloa is susceptable defensively, Aurelio is too - although he's looked more reliable this season in fitness and performance. Mascherano is there to win the ball, unfortunately that's about all he is good for and he can't afford silly mistakes to go on top of giving away possession via his below par passing. Obviously you can't blame Mascherano for every goal we concede, nor can he be expected to stop every goal, but his presence doesn't seem to make our defence any more solid than it would be without and if others make mistakes then is his inclusion making that much difference? Even if he could do nothing about any of the goals we've conceded in the past two matches, doesn't that in itself question the point of including someone who is not good enough on the ball, passing or shooting? Maybe his presence doesn't hinder our scoring, but he is one dimensional and he's played in our defeats at spudz, boro, and 10 other draws this season. We've lost five games and drawn 17, Mascherano has played in three defeats and 12 draws - we scored only once in those three defeats and have kept just 14 clean sheets in the 33 games he's played this season. That was our 50th game of the season, we've kept 23 clean sheets so 9 in the 17 games Mascherano hasn't played. Some might point to the 1-3 defeat at home to Chelsea in the CL and Mascherano's absence, but would he have made any difference to a lack of marking in the penalty area for two of their goals?!?!?

I would tend to write the results off as being one of needing to score three goals and caught out pushing for goals, the other as being directly or indirectly down to defensive errors. I hope Rafa sees it the same way and doesn't curb our approach

...and gerard has played in every single one of those defeats 

[Bad Bob]

Well in truth we've played against three good teams over the last couple of weeks (Chelsea twice and Arsenal once) and we've conceded eleven goals so clearly something is going on. I think there are probably a couple of reasons which spring to mind for us suddenly becoming a bit leaky, but it's hard to really nail it down to one cause as in truth it's a collection of things.

Firstly there the first leg of the Champions League where we ran into a bit of a tactical swerve from Hiddink which got round our zonal system, some fairly average defending in those situations, and Drogba/Chelsea on a very good night. I think that Ivanovic aside, they would have caused pretty much anyone a problem that night.

In the second leg, we were pressing on trying to do the impossible and got picked off. We were going at it kamikazi but in truth we didn't have a deal of choice. I don't think FWIW there was anything you could conclude from that game, it was kind of a one off.

That said, the 4-4 one off was followed incredibly by another 4-4. On this occasion, we were undone by individual errors, a good player and once again a pretty gung ho performance.

If I were to summarise the three performances and the problems contained within, I'd be looking at our tendency to get a bit carried away mid match once we hit the front. It's an interesting thought that we led in all three matches but didn't manage to win any of them. Against Chelsea at Home we got the vital goal early but in truth never really looked like we'd keep a clean sheet. In the return leg once they made the much needed tactical changes they turned a 2-0 deficit into a 3-2 lead fairly quick smart. Against Arsenal once we'd overturned the opening goal we didn't manage to keep the game quiet even for a short time.

I think what we are seeing is a result of a team which in truth has been overly defensive (and I know somebody will quote how many goals we've scored but that won't change my opinion) changing into one which is absolutely at the opposite end of the scale. We've gone from playing two holding midfielders to a situation where both Alonso and Masherano are bombing on, Riera isn't bothering to track back, whoever is filling in for Gerrard isn't bothering to come back, and both Aurelio and Arbeoa look likely to score at any moment. It's fantastic to watch and IMHO long overdue, but we need to get a bit more balance to the whole thing I think.

Just because we need to win, it shouldn't mean we need to win 6-3. 1-0 will do just fine thanks, just like at Stamford Bridge once we had gone 2-0 up we should have been sitting. Keep it tight and 2-0 until 15 minutes from the end, then go for the winner which of course another goal would have been. Likewise against Arsenal, get in front and settle down. Defend properly, wake up, keep your wits about you, keep it tight and pick them off. Instead we get caught dawdling on the ball and with an admittedly World Class finish it's 2-2.

I don't blame the manager for the slide, he's probably tearing out whatever hair he's got left worrying about it. It's probably though the inevitable consequence of a sudden change of style for the team, and the fact that we simply aren't used to it. Our central defenders, indeed all the defence are actually being asked to defend without a blanket in front of them and unfortunately so far they aren't coping. That's why the Mancs are able to bomb on from all directions, they have Ferdinand and Vidic ho they can trust to defend. If we are going to play this more expansive style, we might need to look at picking up at least one top class defender, unfortunately it's looking like we are a wee bit short in that area.

Oh come on Mick!  No need to actually analyze the situation and come up with a reasoned and highly nuanced account of a complex and multi-faceted set of events.  Much easier just to work with simple maths and even more simplistic assumptions.  We've conceded 8 in 2 games...it MUST be the keeper's fault.  Oh, and Rafa's of course--he (the manager who practically invented the phrase keep it tight at the back and nick a goal) needs to "learn" how to slow the game down and protect a lead. 


Seriously, it's a good post and one that I hope certain knee-jerkers take a close look at.  I agree that the collective impetus in the last few games has been to go at things hammer and tongs to get back into the tie (in the case of Chelsea) or to overturn an unexpected deficit (in the case of Arsenal).  We've managed to do so brilliantly but, once the adrenalin's been pumping, we've had a hell of a time slamming the breaks on the thing, putting our foot on the ball and shutting up shop.  It looked like we were starting to reign things in a little last night just before Arshavin's second but that goal of course put a spanner in the works and forced us to rev things back up again.  I'm sure Rafa was absolutely apoplectic on the sideline because he'll have wanted to see much more composure than that from the lads.  Still, it's been an exciting ride though not for the faint of heart!