Liverpool FC Forum

[JBG]

You might excuse me for starting this thread here, but there is simply too much melodramatics going on at the moment in General Discussion. 

Most people are criticising Rafa's 4-2-3-1 apprach, perhaps rightfully so.

This formation has brought Rafa huge success at Valencia. It also worked quite well for him last season in the Champions League.

However, so far, it is misfiring in the Premiership.

The obvious reason, I believe, is that the forward players at Rafa's disposal at Liverpool are simply not in the same class as those he had at Valencia.

If you examine things closely, since Benitez took charge, he has had Milan Baros, Djbril Cisse, Peter Crouch and Fernando Morientes at his disposal.

All of these players are of high quality (yes, even Peter Crouch) and in Fernando Morientes, Benitez has a forward of the highest quality.

Yet, all of these players have struggled to put the ball in the net on a regular basis for Liverpool.

I don't think the problem is with the above players themselves. In the right team, set up to take advantage of their abilities, Djbril Cisse and Milan Baros would score quite regularly.

Nor do I think that in theory, the formation itself is inherently flawed.

The main problem is the bank of three players sitting behind the loan front man.

This bank of three players features two out wide and a middle man who raids forward.

Chelsea use this formation with Drogba up on his own with Robben and Duff as the two wide men in the bank of three behind him. In the middle of the bank of three is Frank Lampard.

Chelsea have used this system to great success. Drogba got slaughtered last season as being a waste of money, but in this formation, the centre forward is sacrificed in favour of the bank of three. Lampard, Duff and Robben all excelled last year.

In our system, we invaribaly use a bank of Risse, Gerrard and Garcia. Gerrard is potentially excellent in the role, and if properly used, could reach far greater heights than Frank Lampard purely on the basis that he is a superior all round player.

Luis Garcia is also a useful alternative in the middle of the bank of three, and it is this position that Garcia is best in.

The main flaw in the system is using Garcia and Risse as the wide men. Neither are capable of beating the full back and whipping in crosses for Crouch/Morientes. The whole point of the system is for the bank of three to supply ball to the centre forward and aid him in attacks. If they can't do this then the system just cannot work.

Rafa has acknowledged this. In a couple of interviews this season, he has conceded that he needs "proper" wingers. Mark Gonzalez was earmarked for one of the positions in the bank of three, but when his transfer collapsed, Benitez was left with a major problem. This was compounded by Luis Figo deciding to go to Inter instead of us.

Liverpool made a number of last gasp attempts to sign a few wide players in the last two weeks of the transfer window - Giannakopulous, Solano and Simao Sambrosa were all targeted - but for one reason or another, these transfers couldn't be completed.

Rafa concedes that the players he has at his disposal aren't perfectly suited for the role, but for some bizarre reason, he is trying to fit square pegs into round holes. He has spoken of the current players having to adapt to the system.

The system has been exposed, and perhaps now it is time for Rafa to revert to a 4-4-2, with Crouch/Morientes operating beside an orthodox forward in Djbril Cisse, at least until January when Rafa will undoubtedly return to the transfer market to sign the wide players he wants.

I think in the long term, Rafa will persist with 4-2-3-1. Many of us dislike Harry Kewell, but I believe Rafa sees him as his long term left sided player in the 4-2-3-1, replacing the honest but patently unsuitable John Arne Riise in that role. On the right he will probably bring in both Gonzalez and probably Simao Sambrosa, should the transfer of Jaoquin not be achievable. This would at last give Benitez the player capable of playing in this system, and it could bring considerable success, but in the future. It would also mean the end of Djbril Cisse as a LIverpool player.

However, our league form over the past 14 months have proven that the current personel are simply not up to the task. A fully fit and motivated Harry Kewell and Jaoquin/Simao/Gonzalez on the flanks of the trio, with either Gerrard or Garcia or even Fernando Morientes in the hole, looks hugely promising. However, until we have those players available, perhaps it is time to change our approach, with an orthodox 4-4-2, with Cisse as an orthodox forward.

The worrying thing is that Rafa will become stubborn, and persist with his favoured 4-2-3-1 with the current batch of players, which threatens to produce mixed results at best.

[JBG]

Maybe I'll answer my own question with a quote of Shankly's.

"Pundits' teams are always better because they never have to play".

Rafa has won two La Liga's, the European Cup, the UEFA Cup and the Super Cup, so I can say with great confidence that he knows far more about football than all of us here put together. Perhaps we have underestimated the problems he inherited (and in fairness to Gerrard Houllier, the problems Ged inherited as well) and if any man can put us back on the right track, Rafa is the man.

The guy has won everything going, and he'll turn his extensive and considerable talents to win the league, eventually.

[neil]

The law of averages says he's due a f.uckup then........spotted. I'm not happy JBG, not by a long chalk.

[bigmick]

It's a really good post JBG and a very good illustration of what the 4-2-3-1 offers and why it works so well for teams who have the personel. I have to say though that your interpretation of the way Chelsea set up is different to mine. For me they play 4-1-4-1. Very similar to arsenal except that for the gunners Bergkamp plays infront of the midfield four whereas for Chelsea, Makeleli sits in behind.
I said in a previous post that the key to unhinging their defensive solidity for me is to unhook the rope which ties the little Frenchman to his central defenders. This was done by Liverpool in the CL game as Makeleli attempted to pick up Gerrard and the Liverpool man sat in a bit deeper than Chelsea anticipated, meaning Crouch could bring the ball down without encountering the holding midfielder coming back to face him up. The other way is to attack with genuine pace in the channels and pull the central defenders out of their equilateral triangle. As we haven't got the pace and mobility upfront to do that, they were able to tell Makeleli to sit in deep in the league game which gave them stability. He's probably the best holding midfielder in the World TBF and this is what gives Lampard Duff and Robben/Cole the licence to fill the box when they are attacking.

[JBG]

I agree Mick.

I say we go back to basics.

A flat back four, with Alonso and Hamman/Sissoko in central midfield, and Riise and Gerrard on the flanks, with Crouch and Cisse up front. Nothing particularly clever about this formation and it is one used by most Premiership sides. The difference for us is that our players are better than most Premiership sides and in most matches, player for player, we'd beat the opposition.

Rafa can go back to his 4-2-3-1 when he gets in the players he wants, but at the moment its a bit like getting binmen to perform plastic surgery. The bin men are very good at their own jobs, but getting them to do something artistic just leaves the end result looking like Sylvester Stallone's mother.

[woof woof !]

Interesting as all this may be ,lets just stick our fingers in our cheeks and make the sound of us all disappearing up our own rsoles with a resounding  "plop"  as we go around and around and around. We all seem to agree in this and
countless other threads that Rafa's tactics and Rafa's players don't gel into his masterplan .

He can't change/add to his squad until Jan at least , in the meantime he has to change his "one up " formation otherwise we just carry on failing to impress .


Fu'ck I'm bored 

[bigmick]

The bin men are very good at their own jobs, but getting them to do something artistic just leaves the end result looking like Sylvester Stallone's mother.

Like it JBG. Binmen may be a bit Rodney Marsh but I take your point all the same.

[RAFABENITEZ]

4 2 31 is a much more effective fomation than 4 4 2 imo

[dawson99]

it all depends if we are playnig home or away. when we are [playing away we always play with sisoko and alonso in the middle with gerrard on the right. we also seem to play more of a 1 up by himself approach. At home we play more 'our' way. a lot more attacknig and flowing football. i think we need to keep to our game plan more. against bolton we tried to play the same as them, and that was our downfall

[IstanBuL-FenerBaHce]

4 2 31 is a much more effective fomation than 4 4 2 imo

If you have  "Duff-Lampard-Robben / Drogba" or "Victor-Valeron-Luque(Munitis) / Tristan" you can do great job with a 4231... not with this squad.. 

[RAFABENITEZ]

4 2 31 is a much more effective fomation than 4 4 2 imo

If you have  "Duff-Lampard-Robben / Drogba" or "Victor-Valeron-Luque(Munitis) / Tristan" you can do great job with a 4231... not with this squad.. 

Simao,Gerrard,Gonzalez/ Cisse or Crouch
next year we will!!!!
im smell #19

[stmichael]

Can't believe I'm dragging this up after two years but I feel it's relevant as Rafa has reverted back to using this old Valencia formation in recent weeks with some success imo.

If Rafa is going to stick with this formation there is no point having 4 strikers really. Torres, Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin are what we currently have and I personally would sell at least two of them. In the past i have said move Babel to the centre but im starting to warm to him in the position he is playing at the moment especially if we had a right sided player of the same quality.

If we're going to set up in a 4-2-3-1 then it doesn't matter as much that Babel starts wide. I'd still like to see him get a run up front in a 4-4-2 to see if he is the striker we need for the long term alongside Torres.

If we're developing a 4-2-3-1 as our preferred formation then I'd like to see us sign Rafinha for the right back slot. The Alves ship has probably sailed, but by all accounts Rafinha would be a third to half the cost and is at the level of Alves a couple of years ago when Rafa first tried to buy him. I'd rather not buy a second fullback in the summer since I think Arbeloa has a long term future here, and Insua might be the long term answer at left back (the time is close to play the lad to see what he can do). Finnan and Aurelio should be retained since they both still have something to offer, but they are not the future.

Gerrard in a free role is essential to get the best out of our best player, in my opinion. I think he's wasted as one of a central two - just because he can defend doesn't mean he should defend, in my book. For me the ideal system to get the best out of Gerrard is to have a front three of Babel, Torres and Gerrard with Xabi and The Chief sitting deep and link man in between. Width would come from fullback and the solidity from the centre halves and covering central midfielders. However, the fullbacks would have to be able to get up and down the entire flank all game which is why we'd need at least one new one to make the system work.

As things stand, we've got all the players we need for that system apart from the full backs.

[skatesy]

As things stand, we've got all the players we need for that system apart from the full backs.

And I think that is the point.

We now have the players that we need to make this formation work well. And I think that Rafa knows this more than anyone as he is starting to feel more comfortable in employing this style of play. We can see that he has been sitting Mascherano and Lucas/Alonso in front of the defence with Gerrard sitting in front of them for the last couple of matches and it has, for the most part, been working.

This formation did not work two years ago as we did not have the players to make it work.

Tomkins wrote a pretty good article where he touches on this subject quite well over at Liverpoolfc.tv

[Ace Ventura]

I really like the formation but think we are 2 possibly 3 players from having the type of line up that would really help us push on an have a crack at the league.
The positions being obviously in the wide areas, i havent seen this Rafinha but if he is similar to Alves and at a third of the price then he may be worth a shout.
Both full back positions possibly need filling, we have decent players in these positions but just not good enough.
I feel harsh saying this about Finnan but although he is so steady and reliable if we are going to use this formation (which i think Rafa likes alot) then we need the full backs to be overlapping and be quicker.
Watching Insua for the reserves and he is constantly looking to get forward, he is sometimes a little wasteful in posession but he is up and down all the time and looks a very useful player.
Aurellio looked great yesterday and was getting beyond Babel quite alot, he doesnt really have enough pace for my liking though and also is too injury prone to be relied on as first choice.

The other position is obviously where Kuyt is playing at the moment, to be fair to him he has done ok in the last few games and was unlucky with the volley that hit the post before Babels goal. He is just not good enough though, with that formation it is vital that we break at speed and pick the right passes each time, he is too slow physically but also isnt clever enough either imo. I would try and get Joe Cole from Chelsea, rumours are that he is not happy, he was dropped for the cup final as well.
If we had someone with his skill, intelligence and composure in that area we would be a far far more potent attacking threat.

[stmichael]

The other position is obviously where Kuyt is playing at the moment, to be fair to him he has done ok in the last few games and was unlucky with the volley that hit the post before Babels goal. He is just not good enough though, with that formation it is vital that we break at speed and pick the right passes each time, he is too slow physically but also isnt clever enough either imo. I would try and get Joe Cole from Chelsea, rumours are that he is not happy, he was dropped for the cup final as well.
If we had someone with his skill, intelligence and composure in that area we would be a far far more potent attacking threat.

It's an interesting point and one which myself, Bigmick and Saint have debated over and over again. We all know Saint loves this "creative second striker" concept.

My mate was making the point the other day that he thinks that the Peter Crouch of '05-'06 is made for that link role, using the argument that the role doesn't require pace as the pace is all around him. It's also a close relative of the role he played in his first season where he was so instrumental in our vastly improved ball retention, not to mention Gerrard's goal haul.

You have to look at the financial situation aswell. For example, two full backs would be more afordable than a top quality link man. Joe Cole would cost £15-20m for example. Get the system working and then add more quality in future. With Babel and Gerrard attacking from the right and left, the need for true wingers becomes less pressing and the priority, for me, becomes full back. Beyond that, I agree that a top class crafty player to play in the hole would be ideal but I want pace on the flanks first.