Liverpool FC Forum

[Simari]

4-2-3-1 gets the best out of our best players, Torres with Gerrard behind him and Alonso and Mascherano paired together in central midfield with Alonso having slightly more licence to step up. Really we should have just filled in the gaps either side of Gerrard with 2 quality players and we would have been laughing.

Last year Torres, Gerrard and Mascherano were awesome in the 4-2-3-1, and I’m sure if Alonso has his head right and is fit he would be excellent alongside Masch in that system

But for some reason Rafa has decided to pay £20 Million for Keane, and although he is a decent player, we simply don’t need him and especially if he not going to play right up alongside another striker and especially not for that price.

Funnily enough I think the signing of Keane may prove to be the biggest mistake of Rafa’s Liverpool career.

Rubbish.

Steven Gerrard doesn't have the ability to make that position work for him against better sides.

I find it absoloutely rediculous people saying he shouldn't be played in a defensive role yet should be played in attacking role. He's good at both, exceptional at neither.

He's not got the intelligence or quality going forward to influence games against good sides in the position.

His best position is on the right, or centraly in a pairing, paired with an attacking creative player who dictates play.

Its not, never has been and never will be off a front player.

Tend to agree with Stu on this one.

Gerrard's best position against Man U and Chelsea specifically, is central midfield. I am excluding Arsenal since we have a decent record against them when Rafa has fielded a full strength side. Through attacking central midfield, he is very easily nullified against the top 2. I'd even give him a go on the right side as he has the pace, strength and crossing ability to trouble the likes of Ashley Cole and Evra.

The problems arise, when Alonso and Masch are in the middle, and Alonso does not deliver. Masch will hold his own defensively, but if Alonso disappears like he did against Boro (who may be an improved side but are nowhere near Chelsea and Mancs), then Keane and Torres will not get the service they need - with Alonso playing keep-ball with our defenders.

Unless a last minute deal comes through where we get a quality winger - I do fear that the missing link in our squad could very well be the highly inconsistent performances from Alonso over the course of the season. He is being given another chance and really needs to prove himself, game after game.

Just my thoughts, so feel free to rip apart

[Fo Dne]

Steven Gerrard is better from the right side of the pitch where he has defensive responsibilities and isn't expected to dictate games as he doesn't have the ability to do that, regardless of the "sun shines out of the best centre mids " brigade thinking otherwise.

So when did you change your mind then sunshine ? Kinell goldfish memory or what, you were "sun shines out of the best centre mids" furher for the last three years.

Make your mind up, stop jumping the fence, and AGAIN you have no right to take the pi$$ on peoples stances about where Gerrard plays, because you've now hopped from both sides of the fence you big wet blanket.

Quote from Stu the singleton " Hes the best box to box central midfield in the country bar none"

Really it beggers belief the amount of people on here that have more than one face. 

And when was he last played as a box to box central midfielder next to an attacking midfielder who dictates play?

Answer... for England next to Paul Scholes.

[66-1112520797]

Steven Gerrard is better from the right side of the pitch where he has defensive responsibilities and isn't expected to dictate games as he doesn't have the ability to do that, regardless of the "sun shines out of the best centre mids " brigade thinking otherwise.

So when did you change your mind then sunshine ? Kinell goldfish memory or what, you were "sun shines out of the best centre mids" furher for the last three years.

Make your mind up, stop jumping the fence, and AGAIN you have no right to take the pi$$ on peoples stances about where Gerrard plays, because you've now hopped from both sides of the fence you big wet blanket.

Quote from Stu the singleton " Hes the best box to box central midfield in the country bar none"

Really it beggers belief the amount of people on here that have more than one face. 

And when was he last played as a box to box central midfielder next to an attacking midfielder who dictates play?

Answer... for England next to Paul Scholes.

So your telling me you've been banging this particular drum since Scholes last played for England three years ago. And in that time you've constantly said Gerrard is better on the right ?

Stu you often contradict yourself on here, but dont admit to that ^^ as your just digging a deeper hole and making yourself look even more stupid.

[66-1112520797]

Rubbish.

Steven Gerrard doesn't have the ability to make that position work for him against better sides.

I find it absoloutely rediculous people saying he shouldn't be played in a defensive role yet should be played in attacking role. He's good at both, exceptional at neither.

He's not got the intelligence or quality going forward to influence games against good sides in the position.

His best position is on the right, or centraly in a pairing, paired with an attacking creative player who dictates play.

Its not, never has been and never will be off a front player

Give it two or three years and Stu will be telling everyone Gerrards best position is just behind Torres, and will have made claim to that since day dot.

[Fo Dne]

Rubbish.

Steven Gerrard doesn't have the ability to make that position work for him against better sides.

I find it absoloutely rediculous people saying he shouldn't be played in a defensive role yet should be played in attacking role. He's good at both, exceptional at neither.

He's not got the intelligence or quality going forward to influence games against good sides in the position.

His best position is on the right, or centraly in a pairing, paired with an attacking creative player who dictates play.

Its not, never has been and never will be off a front player

Give it two or three years and Stu will be telling everyone Gerrards best position is just behind Torres, and will have made claim to that since day dot.

Yeah course I will.

Tackling, aggression, determination and ball winning are all the traits of a great drop of striker or a great attacking midfielder...

STEVEN GERRARD IS NOT, NEVER HAS BEEN AND NEVER WILL BE A WORLD CLASS ATTACKING MIDFIELDER.

The best attributes in his game are determination, tackling, aggression, intensity and shooting. He's excellent at tracking back and winning a ball off players, if you play him in an advanced role you're taking away this part of his game which is stupid considering this is what he's good at. Just as if you are playing him in a "holding role" you're tacking away the attacking side of his game.

Steven Gerrard is not Zidane, Zidane was exceptional going forward with an amazing touch, passing, skill and vision. Gerrard isn't even close to Zidane in any of those attributes, infact, Steven Gerrard is simply good in the departments, not world class. If Zidane had a 20/20 for attacking play Gerrard would get a 14-15. Zidane may get a 5 for defensive play, Gerrard would again, get a 15-16. Thats what makes Gerrard so good, because he can do both, he's not amazingly good at one and poor at the other, he's simply good at both, exceptional at neither.

Steven Gerrard would be a better right back than an attacking midfielder which says everything about his game.

Yes, he can hit a shot and score a goal, but there is alot more to playing as a team than that and thats what people fail to see about Gerrard and have done for years.

Idiots... (not mentioning no names) seem to think he's some sort of attacking and creative genius when he clearly isn't. Yes he makes things happen, but the fact is, whenever he's played in a two, Liverpool have often been lacking in creativety because he's had a holding player next to him, IE Alonso, Hamann and now Mascherano. He doesn't need a holding player next to him, he needs a Paul Scholes type player or Deco if he's to play centraly and he needs to be given defensive responsibility. Yes that would decrease his goal tally and maybe even his assist tally but you'd then get 100% out of your best player.

His movement often isn't well thought out to be some genius attacking midfielder, IE he takes spaces that other players should take and his passing at times can be very erratic in both choice of pass and weight of pass. He also doesn't take up the best positions for team mates to find him with the ball inthe same way the likes of Alonso, Scholes or Fabregas would. He also has a tendancy to ALWAYS move after a pass when sometimes its beter to play the pass, stay where you are and then look to lay the ball off to someone else.

I'm actually starting to think that Liverpool will never will the league with Gerrard in the team because no manager can consistently get the best out of him. His best performances for me have been in games where he's no scored and set goals up.

[JoeTerp]

Steven Gerrard would be a better right back than an attacking midfielder which says everything about his game.



Idiots... (not mentioning no names) seem to think he's some sort of attacking and creative genius when he clearly isn't. Yes he makes things happen, but the fact is, whenever he's played in a two, Liverpool have often been lacking in creativety because he's had a holding player next to him, IE Alonso, Hamann and now Mascherano. He doesn't need a holding player next to him, he needs a Paul Scholes type player or Deco if he's to play centraly and he needs to be given defensive responsibility. Yes that would decrease his goal tally and maybe even his assist tally but you'd then get 100% out of your best player.

So if he is to play centrally you would suggest he play with whom?  Lucas? Yossi?  That leaves both Alonso and Mascherano out of the team, hardly getting the best out of our best players. Maybe we should be focusing on getting the best working together overall XI on the pitch, and not whats best for our best player.  If you put Gerrard on the right, then there is going to be a serious imbalance in the team because who are we going to put on the left that can mirror what he can bring to the team from out there? 

I agree with all your points of pointing out how Gerrard is not the ideal attacking midfielder, but I also think there is no easy solution to the problem given what we currently have at the club.

[Cool Hand Luke]

4-2-3-1 gets the best out of our best players, Torres with Gerrard behind him and Alonso and Mascherano paired together in central midfield with Alonso having slightly more licence to step up. Really we should have just filled in the gaps either side of Gerrard with 2 quality players and we would have been laughing.

Last year Torres, Gerrard and Mascherano were awesome in the 4-2-3-1, and I’m sure if Alonso has his head right and is fit he would be excellent alongside Masch in that system

But for some reason Rafa has decided to pay £20 Million for Keane, and although he is a decent player, we simply don’t need him and especially if he not going to play right up alongside another striker and especially not for that price.

Funnily enough I think the signing of Keane may prove to be the biggest mistake of Rafa’s Liverpool career.

Rubbish.

Steven Gerrard doesn't have the ability to make that position work for him against better sides.

I find it absoloutely rediculous people saying he shouldn't be played in a defensive role yet should be played in attacking role. He's good at both, exceptional at neither.

He's not got the intelligence or quality going forward to influence games against good sides in the position.

His best position is on the right, or centraly in a pairing, paired with an attacking creative player who dictates play.

Its not, never has been and never will be off a front player.

Giving Steven Gerrard the freedom to use both the width and length of the pitch as he wishes will get the best out of him. Gerrard is happiest when he doesn’t HAVE to worry about leaving gaps, although he will track back anyway on most occasions.

No one is asking him to sit behind Torres, slot him in and link play. And at the same time playing him as part of a pairing where has to be disciplined in his position is a waste.

No one can doubt that Gerrard played some of the best football in his career last season, not only because he had Torres with him but also because he had two players behind him worrying about not losing position, while he could track back as and when he felt like it.

People need to get it out of their head that by playing Gerrard behind Torres he has to be some sort of Bergkamp or Zola type player. Gerrard has his own talents and can play behind Torres in his own way, are you going to sit there and tell me that he wasn’t effective last year? If he wants to come from deep then let him, if he wants to pull wide then let him. That’s the beauty of playing 2 holding players, the 4 in front have a lot of freedom to take up different positions.

Apart from the header he scored against us (which has nothing do with his position he played on the pitch), how many games was Ronaldo effective in against the good teams? Not many from what I can recall, does that mean that Fergie should move him to left back?

Forget positions for a moment, to get the best out of Gerrard you need to give him FREEDOM, and that’s exactly what he gets when he plays behind Torres in the 4-2-3-1.

[Fo Dne]

4-2-3-1 gets the best out of our best players, Torres with Gerrard behind him and Alonso and Mascherano paired together in central midfield with Alonso having slightly more licence to step up. Really we should have just filled in the gaps either side of Gerrard with 2 quality players and we would have been laughing.

Last year Torres, Gerrard and Mascherano were awesome in the 4-2-3-1, and I’m sure if Alonso has his head right and is fit he would be excellent alongside Masch in that system

But for some reason Rafa has decided to pay £20 Million for Keane, and although he is a decent player, we simply don’t need him and especially if he not going to play right up alongside another striker and especially not for that price.

Funnily enough I think the signing of Keane may prove to be the biggest mistake of Rafa’s Liverpool career.

Rubbish.

Steven Gerrard doesn't have the ability to make that position work for him against better sides.

I find it absoloutely rediculous people saying he shouldn't be played in a defensive role yet should be played in attacking role. He's good at both, exceptional at neither.

He's not got the intelligence or quality going forward to influence games against good sides in the position.

His best position is on the right, or centraly in a pairing, paired with an attacking creative player who dictates play.

Its not, never has been and never will be off a front player.

Giving Steven Gerrard the freedom to use both the width and length of the pitch as he wishes will get the best out of him. Gerrard is happiest when he doesn’t HAVE to worry about leaving gaps, although he will track back anyway on most occasions.

No one is asking him to sit behind Torres, slot him in and link play. And at the same time playing him as part of a pairing where has to be disciplined in his position is a waste.

No one can doubt that Gerrard played some of the best football in his career last season, not only because he had Torres with him but also because he had two players behind him worrying about not losing position, while he could track back as and when he felt like it.

People need to get it out of their head that by playing Gerrard behind Torres he has to be some sort of Bergkamp or Zola type player. Gerrard has his own talents and can play behind Torres in his own way, are you going to sit there and tell me that he wasn’t effective last year? If he wants to come from deep then let him, if he wants to pull wide then let him. That’s the beauty of playing 2 holding players, the 4 in front have a lot of freedom to take up different positions.

Apart from the header he scored against us (which has nothing do with his position he played on the pitch), how many games was Ronaldo effective in against the good teams? Not many from what I can recall, does that mean that Fergie should move him to left back?

Forget positions for a moment, to get the best out of Gerrard you need to give him FREEDOM, and that’s exactly what he gets when he plays behind Torres in the 4-2-3-1.

Yeah, and when he's got that freedom against the good sides he drops into deep positions where he's more comfortable and leaves Torres even more iscolated against top defenders...

When he tracks back, again he leaves Torres upfront on his own... Great thinking batman!

Gerrard doesn't influence games against good sides in this position. You need world class players to influence games in these positions or there is quite simply no point in playing them there.

Last season he didn't play anything like his best football, he done ok on occassions and scored a few goals, he was by no means at the standard he's been in past seasons and for you to sit there and say otherwise is complete .

The fact is, to much emphasis is based on discipline and blah de blah. I don't disagree with a player like Gerrard he NEEDS freedom, but he also needs responsibility to take the team forward. Playing him as a support striker (on a regular basis, especially with these players) Liverpool will never win anything. Of that I'm 100% sure.

[bigmick]

Well the topic starter asks whehther we prefer 4-2-2 or 4-2-3-1. I'm very much an advocate of the second option over the first, if for no other reason than in my experience playing with only nine men inhibits your chances of winning the match.

[Fo Dne]

Well the topic starter asks whehther we prefer 4-2-2 or 4-2-3-1. I'm very much an advocate of the second option over the first, if for no other reason than in my experience playing with only nine men inhibits your chances of winning the match.

Wondered who was going to be the first to post about that...

[bigmick]

Well now you know, twas me

[Red H]

Is this not all dependent on signing, or not, of some players capable of playing genuinely wide on either side ?  I don't see the point of playing people out of position when a more sensible formation is available, especially as Chelsea and Man U seem quite comfortable with playing in a similar way.

I see Bable and Keane as playing off  Torres, either together, or one at a time. 
As for paying £20 million on a someone to play down the right, who cares if we keep winning.  This is the whole argument between Rafa and the board.  It is nor the age or the money that is important.  Is it that they are either the right player or they are not ? or is it can afford them or we cannot ?  Money is finite, so it is difficult to square the circle, but I believe you put your faith in the manager or start looking for a new one.

Frankly if we spent £20 mil on a left back and won the league I would look on it as cheap, either you have all the pieces of the puzzle or you do not.

Personally I think the formation should be flexible , but I would like to see Mascherano and Gerrard playing in front of the back four for most games, with an extra body for the harder ones. Also I like the idea of Bable and Keane playing off Torres.  If Keane or Bable pick the ball up wide it should enable us to have more than just Torres in the box. The key to us being successful could well be the movement, and intelligence of the players behind Torres.  We cannot rely on Gerrard and Torres to win every game for us this year, it is simply not realistic.

[Fo Dne]

Is this not all dependent on signing, or not, of some players capable of playing genuinely wide on either side ?  I don't see the point of playing people out of position when a more sensible formation is available, especially as Chelsea and Man U seem quite comfortable with playing in a similar way.

I see Bable and Keane as playing off  Torres, either together, or one at a time. 
As for paying £20 million on a someone to play down the right, who cares if we keep winning.  This is the whole argument between Rafa and the board.  It is nor the age or the money that is important.  Is it that they are either the right player or they are not ? or is it can afford them or we cannot ?  Money is finite, so it is difficult to square the circle, but I believe you put your faith in the manager or start looking for a new one.

Frankly if we spent £20 mil on a left back and won the league I would look on it as cheap, either you have all the pieces of the puzzle or you do not.

Personally I think the formation should be flexible , but I would like to see Mascherano and Gerrard playing in front of the back four for most games, with an extra body for the harder ones. Also I like the idea of Bable and Keane playing off Torres.  If Keane or Bable pick the ball up wide it should enable us to have more than just Torres in the box. The key to us being successful could well be the movement, and intelligence of the players behind Torres.  We cannot rely on Gerrard and Torres to win every game for us this year, it is simply not realistic.

Babel and game intelligence...

[Thewaykokid]

Voted for 4-4-2, can't pay 20 mil for Keane and not play him up front

[66-1112520797]

People need to get it out of their head that by playing Gerrard behind Torres he has to be some sort of Bergkamp or Zola type player. Gerrard has his own talents and can play behind Torres in his own way, are you going to sit there and tell me that he wasn’t effective last year? If he wants to come from deep then let him, if he wants to pull wide then let him. That’s the beauty of playing 2 holding players, the 4 in front have a lot of freedom to take up different positions.

Spot on certain people need to stop stereo typing players roles for them.