Liverpool FC Forum

[76-1115222408]

Right there seems to be a lot of discontent amongst the members on the forum, with the way we have been playing and the lack of creativity and especially width in most of our games so far.
Also there is a lot of people wanting to get rid of the 4-5-1 and get back to a 4-4-2.

I have a different take on it, I really think that a 3-5-2 would do us wonders, especially given the current personnel we have at the moment.

A lot of people think that a 3-5-2 is too attacking and leaves the team open at the back, especially on the counter attack. However, if deployed in a certain way, can be a rock solid formation, that allows attacking play. I think, a 3-5-2, would see us be even more tight at the back, than we have been already this season.

WHY?
I think we would be more solid, because the 3-5-2 whilst defending, becomes a 5-3-2. Considering we are (on the whole) extremely difficult to break down, adding another body in there, will mean opposing teams find it difficult to find a route through the defense.

Also when attacking with a wing back in this formation, it can easily become a 4-4-2, with the other wing back slipping in to a full back role whilst the other attacks and the midfield shifts across.

MY TEAM:

                             REINA

                Carra     Hyppia     Traore

  Finnan                                              Riise
                     
                      Alonso     Sissoko

                             Gerrard

               
             Crouch/Morientes     Cisse/Pongo

Now I can hear people complaining already about the inclusion of Traore at LCB, but I really feel that in a back THREE he would do really well, and would also compensate highly for the lack of pace in Carra/Hyppia. Each of the three bringing their own attributes to create a firm backline.

The KEY to this formation (for me) is of course the wing backs. They have to be both physically up to the job, but (for me) more importantly tactically aware too. They need to know when to go and when not to, but I feel Rafa has the ability to make people understand their roles fully. I think the wing backs we have (Finnan, Risse{would be extremely dangerous in this position...I feel JAR is a true wing back!} Warnock) are all 'smart' enough to cope with this role.

With the three in midfield, we would again have a mix of attributes to cretae something formidable. The strength, aggression and energy from Sissoko, the pinpoint passing and calm orchestrating of Alonso, and the passion, drive and swashbuckling wonder that is Steven Gerrard.
I think this formation is made for SG (remember the CL final!), he is able to float and exploit space, and for those that feel there will still be a gap in the wing areas, this is where SG would come in, floating from left to right and making incisive runs from differing areas of the pitch. He would be very hard to read in this formation (as Milan found out on May 25th) and would create havoc and get a good few goals to boot!

Finally onto the attack, now again we see another advantage to this system, we would have TWO up front, so straight away, we are more of an attacking threat than with one striker. Example; at the moment we are palying with Crouch, and not much width, in the 3-5-2, there could also be times when not much support is coming from the wings (like in a quick counter attack) BUT there would be TWO strikers.
If anyone saw yesterdays game (Boro v Sunderland) you may have noticed the first goal was quite scrappy, but my point on it is this: if you see it again, they only got that goal BECAUSE there were two strikers, the first caused the problem, the second put it in the net. For us at the moment, Crouch creates a problem, but there is nobody there to help finish it off.

Now I am not saying we should adopt this as our new formation week in, week out(a 4-4-2 with great wingers would do me fine TBH!), but I think we should try it out, and I think if we had set out like this against Brum, they would ave s*hit their pants, and I really think we would have pulverised them.

Of course, when we play top opposition, 4-5-1, might be that bit tighter (questionable IMO!!) and that is fair enough, but we need another option I feel, because we are really looking stale in the 4-5-1.
Another problem of the 4-5-1, is, because so many teams play it in the EPL now, teams are working on the training ground day in and day out knowing they will be playing opposition with that formation. So is not that it doesnt work for us (as we have cretaed alot of chances, just not converted) just that it is common place and teams know how to nulify it.

With this 3-5-2, we would be IMO, very hard to score against, but also play very attacking football, especially if the wing backs are utilised properly.
I only would play this formation, with the players i selected (apart from Warnock at LWB) as these are the best wing backs we have, if any are injured, it cannot be played ie; Traore and Josemi cant play in these roles.

We did play this formation last season, and were very attacking when it was used, it only seemed flawed because Pellegrino was the CENTRE of the three, I feel if we play Samy in the centre alongside DT and JC we would be fine.

Lets also not forget it worked in the CL Final to great effect and we were attacking like madmen, not because we had to, but because the formation ALLOWED us to.

Imagine attacking like that week in and week out (against the smaller teams), if we could put three past a GREAT Milan defence in 45mins, then what could we do to others?

[Tiiger]

We did wonder with this formation on the "one night in may". But our wingers' lack of ability to attack is fatal (at least I haven't seen too much). Gerrard as AMC is a good choice, but I think Stevie needs sometime to adapt; plus, you didn't mention Garcia, don't you rate him?

Anyway, as soon as we get good winger, Rafa will use this formation a lot, I think.

[Lando_Griffin]

I think in theory this is a good system. I said the same ages ago. With the players at his disposal, Rafa could do worse than employ 3-5-2.

However; it does, as you rightly say, fail to address the wingers problem. Yes it gives the impression of being more attacking than 4-5-1, but if you study some of our games in which we have used it, 4-5-1 can be played as 2-5-3. Obviously this is only when we're in possession, but even against the scum, it seemed as though only JC and Sami stayed as defenders all of the time. This is in essence a wing-back role adopted by two fullbacks. (Be it Josemi, Warnock, Finnan or Riise).

I do feel, though, that 3-5-2 is a very useful system, particularly considering the playing personnel we have at Anfield. I'd have gone for Whitbred as the third CB though, rather than Bambi.

[LFC #1]

I think It's a formation worth looking at, away from home especially. It's quite adaptable depending on if you go behind or ahead in the game.

[66-1112520797]

I would keep with four at the back for now,there is no point in tinkering with the defence.
It would take even more time for this system to bed (defence any way) and im not sure enough if we have the pace at the back to play this way.

The defence isnt broke , why alter it ?

[hobbes]

I said similar things before. But most disagree. I IMO am for 3-5-2. and move Finnan to the Right wing .

[NiftyNeil]

I think we need to vary our positions, and 3-5-2 should definitely be considered. Maybe not starting the match with that formation, but converting to it half way through if we are having no success.
I recall Houllier flirting with this idea in his first season, with reasonable success. I remember when Newcastle were beating us 2-0 - we changed to 3-5-2 and Heggem ripped them apart down the right.

[bigmick]

It can have lots of merits to go 3-5-2 and is one I would consider on balance. Just a couple of points though.
Teams playing against you can quite easily ensure that your 3-5-2 becomes a 5-3-2 by simply "splitting" their front two and deploying them wide. They then ask their central midfielders to get forward and support leaving you with no option but to pin the full-backs into a back 5. It was a tactical dilemma that England never really came to grips with under Hoddle IMHO, tell you the truth I'm not sure he even knew what was happening.
Probably the key to overcoming this is to drum into your three centralish defenders that reluctance to get dragged out of the centre (which prevails in a normal 4-4-2) should be put to the back of the mind in this system. It requires a fluidity and speed of thought which needs lots of work on the training pitch.
Last point, I agree with selecting Traore in this system but with our current personel would always find a place for Luis Garcia (simply because IMHO he is one of our best players). I would play him off the front man (sorry no place for Cisse in this system) because if and when your full-backs do get pinned, you need one of the central two strikers to give you some width. Garcia is the man with the plan.

[Scottbot]

A well thought out post and decent argument for 3-5-2. I'm all for using it as a change-up (which Rafa does from time to time, particularly in Europe.) But i am not a fan of using it week-in week-out.

Big Mick made a good point about getting pinned back when the opposition play high and wide (this happened to the college team i manage when i tried the same formation.) It also takes a lot of practice to master it. With so many teams playing with just one up-top it means you have 3 centre-halfs marking the one striker and lots of midfielders playing in front of you or getting to the box late. The 4-5-1 formation that many teams play relies on a link striker/ attacking-mid playing in between the defense & midfield. This means one (or sometimes two) of your back three have to step up to mark their man. Knowing who should stay/go can cause problems.

The wing-back role would certainly suit Jonny Riise who is a classic tweener. Not a left-back or a winger but can do both jobs. I also agree that Traore looks more comfortable as one of 3 centre backs but then i dare say he would look more comfortable if he played as one of two left-backs

[red or dead]

3 -5 - 2  is made for lpool at this time it lets us use are 3 centremids gerrard,alonso and sissoko and would benefit crouch's knock downs for cissie and gerrard worth a go. 

[stmichael]

we really need kewell fit and firing down the left. if we could then buy a quality right sided player in january we could then play 4-3-3.

[wrighty (not mark!)]

Give me 4-4-2 anyday.
Depending on what players you have playing in it, it can be a solid formation and also fantastic for attacks as well.
You could play this formation while defending or starting to break, then you can change it to a 4-3-1-2 with Gerrard in a free role behind the 2 front men.

4-4-2 is the most effective and the most sensible if you want a healthy balance of 'attack and defend'.

------------------reina----------------------------


finnan        carragher  hyppia          warnock


sissoko       gerrard     alonso          garcia


                 cisse       sinama

Some people might disagree on the player selection, but one thing is for sure. I'd rather have this formation than a one-dimensional 4-5-1.

In the words of Mike Bassett.....'4-4 fcukin 2!'

[stmichael]

you'd have sissoko wide right?

even though andy gray speaks sh#te most of the time, i agree with what he said yesterday. 4-4-2 does not mean that you'll autiomatically get more attcking, free flowing football. for me, we need quality wide men to play a conventional 4-4-2. at the moment we just don't have this.

[wrighty (not mark!)]

you'd have sissoko wide right?

even though andy gray speaks sh#te most of the time, i agree with what he said yesterday. 4-4-2 does not mean that you'll autiomatically get more attcking, free flowing football. for me, we need quality wide men to play a conventional 4-4-2. at the moment we just don't have this.

I agree with you, but I think it's worth a shot.

[H_K_LFC]

3-5-2 could work and is worth a shot but a dont think finnan could cut it playin as a winger....now he is a gd player who plays well for us at RB but am not sure about him as a winger.

           
                          reina

                carra  hyypia  traore

finnan                                         riise

                     alonso       sissoko

                              gerrard

                 crouch             ciise


By playint that it would give gerrard moer chance to get forward and get onto knock on from crouch and with ciise's pace he should aswell.alonso and siisoko would be solid in the midfield and our defence looks gd.