Liverpool FC Forum

[SouthCoastShankly]

A little long winded but if you have 5 mins have a read. Easily the most provocative and powerful essay I have read for a long time. Hits the nail on the head. Excellent.

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In February 2008 the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, gave a speech on Islamic law. During the ensuing fallout, and while conceding that he was “no expert” on Sharia, he said: “An approach to law which simply said, ‘There is one law for everybody and that is all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or your allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts’. . . is a bit of a danger.”

This quotation, combined with the Archbishop’s assertion that “the application of Sharia in certain circumstances” in the UK was “unavoidable”, caused widespread concern.

In July 2008 the retiring Lord Chief Justice, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, described Sharia as suffering from “widespread misunderstanding”. While admitting that stoning, the chopping-off of hands and flogging would be unacceptable, he backed Sharia principles being applied to marriage arrangements in the UK and was supportive of the Sharia finance initiatives that the Treasury had observed since 2002.

And so the most senior judge in England followed the most senior member of the national Church in backing the integration of elements of Sharia into British life.

The fierce debate which has ensued goes right to the heart not just of contemporary Britain, but also to whether the country remains capable of defending its traditions, and is capable of drawing lines in the sand.

It is also about something more: about whether rights which British people have fought for, and attained, after generations will genuinely be extended to all — or whether the process of multicultural fragmentation will extend to allowing people born into certain communities to live parallel lives, judged by parallel laws.

It is the “soft Sharia” of Sharia finance which has provided what Islamists believe to be the first acceptance, and its critics the thin end of the wedge, of Sharia in the UK.

Even though the first generation of Muslim immigrants into postwar Britain would have had no idea what such a thing was, the British Government has in recent years chosen to accept it without criticism or even question.

In 2000 the Bank of England and the Treasury formed a working group to look at how to enable the development of Islamic finance within the UK. Since 2003 the Financial Services Authority, Treasury, and Revenue & Customs have been introducing changes which allowed UK companies to offer Islamic financial products.

The Islamic finance industry is now growing at 15 per cent a year worldwide. The Islamic Bank of Britain is the UK’s first Sharia-compliant high street bank. In the past decade the market measured by Sharia-compliant assets has grown from $150 billion in the mid-1990s to $700 billion in 2007.

Why is this a problem? First, an acceptance of Islamic finance accepts the moral stances of Sharia. Islamic banks will not deal in any activities deemed to be haram (forbidden). Above all there is the serious problem of who is to decide what is acceptable investment and what is haram. A December 2008 Treasury document says: “It is the role of Sharia scholars to determine whether a financial product or service is compliant with the Sharia principles.”

Such authorities currently include the European Council for Fatwa and Research headed by the extremist cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi. What would the UK Government do if scholars decide that products from allied countries cannot be traded? Would Israeli products develop a haram label? Or, some time in the future, goods from America or Britain herself?

The Government’s stance is now pushing the financial arrangements of a whole swath of the UK population into the hands of clerical reactionaries. It has done so not just by propagating, but by actively proselytising the idea that Sharia finance is the norm for Muslims.

Sharia finance is only one way in which the concept of Sharia values are gaining ground. Last year The Sunday Times revealed that “Islamic law has been officially adopted in Britain, with Sharia courts given powers to rule on Muslim civil cases”.

The courts, known as the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal (MAT), step far beyond their arbitrational remit. They themselves have boasted of having overseen six cases of domestic violence, working in tandem with police investigations. In each case the women who had been the subjects of abuse withdrew their complaints from the police while the MAT judges had suggested that the husbands take anger-management classes and advice from Muslim elders.

In so doing such Sharia courts are treading into ground that is actively illegal. They are also drawing a generation of British Muslim women into a system of law which is deeply backward in its treatment of women.

Because the legal system associated with Sharia is now holding itself out not simply as parallel to British law, but as a replacement of British law, a generation of Muslim women born in Britain are growing up unaware of their basic rights, including their marriage rights, as British citizens. As one British Muslim woman I spoke to put it: “Our rights have been frozen for 1,400 years. To give mullahs power over the community is a step backward.”

Many of those who have argued for the incorporation of elements of Sharia into British law focus on the voluntary side of it. But it is almost impossible for any such person to know if a Muslim woman in the ghettos of Sparkhill in Birmingham, or parts of Luton or Bradford, has actually volunteered.

Today the Sharia snowball is gathering speed, with Sharia pensions and Sharia car insurance.

In the eyes of the British State, Sharia must be seen for what it is: a legal system based on the writings and declarations of a 7th-century tradesman. The British State cannot accept Islamic texts and must not defer to its rules.

This country has fought for many centuries to base law on reason. The adoption of Sharia presents us with a counter to an Enlightenment that we have so long taken for granted that we have forgotten how to defend it.

It also presents us with a new challenge. By allowing different laws to be applied to people of different ethnic origins, based on the notion that there are laws which would are good enough for you but not good enough for me. If Sharia’s future in Britain is indeed inevitable, then our collective future as a cohesive and tolerant society cannot be.

Douglas Murray is this year’s winner of the annual Charles Douglas-Home Memorial Trust Award, established in 1986 in honour of the former Editor of The Times (1982-85). This is an edited version of his essay. Previous winners include V. S. Naipaul, Michael Gove, Matthew d’Ancona, Anne Applebaum and Anthony Daniels

[bunglemark2]

Thank phuck we aren't faced with that over here in Ireland. I don't think I'd be broadminded enough to accept some group trying to either encourage, or force, their belief system on me. It's one thing to say 'live and let live' - it's quite another to say "Well, we accept your right to express your opinion that YOUR system is the right one, and we will comply with your wishes, in the spirit of bleeding heart liberalism..."...
Nah, I'm not THAT broadminded....

[made in UK]

Interesting read, but as I oppose such "open mindedness" that the British Government has adopted I'd be classified as a 'Nazi'. Therefore I'm tongue tide by the evolving democracy (much to my disbelief) that I was born and raised in.

[Ciggy]

If this goes ahead I hope they get tw@tted everywhere feckin scumbags.

http://www.islam4uk.com/current-affairs ... sett-march

Islam4UK, a platform for the global front Al-Muhajiroun, would like to announce the launch of a momentous march that is scheduled to take place in the following weeks, details of which will be released shortly inshaa'allah (God willing).

The destination of this very special event is the small market town of Wootton Bassett, located 6 miles Southwest of Swindon, in northern Wiltshire; Wootton Bassett, is currently famous for its public mourning processions held in memory of British soldiers killed whilst on military service in Afghanistan; coffins containing the dismembered bodies of these soldiers are usually draped in union jack flags and driven through the town centre from RAF Lyneham, as a tribute to their ‘sacrifice'.

The proposed march by members of Islam4UK is however of a very different venture, held not in memory of the occupying and merciless British military, but rather the real war dead who have been shunned by the Western media and general public as they were and continue to be horrifically murdered in the name of Democracy and Freedom - the innocent Muslim men, women and children.

It is quite extraordinary, that with well over 100,000 Muslims killed in Afghanistan in the last 8 years that those military serviceman who have directly or indirectly contributed to their death are paraded as war heroes and moreover honoured for what is ultimately genocide.

We at Islam4UK find this totally unacceptable and as a result have decided to launch the ‘Wootton Bassett March' to highlight the real casualties of this brutal Crusade.

If you would like more information about the ‘Wootton Bassett March' or are Muslim and would like to take part in it please contact the following numbers:

General Enquiries: 07961 577 221

Media Enquiries: 07956 600 569

[Owzat]

UK law does what it says on the tin, the judge and jury should be applying the law and no more take into account foreign imported beliefs than they do other religious beliefs.

They want sharon law to apply, they should live in a country where it does apply not try and force it into our law. I think our immigration laws are weak and watery enough without letting people who are non-EU and quite possibly dangerous into this country without good cause. Maybe we should take a stronger stance on asylum seekers, while some may have a genuine case a) they don't stop at the nearest asylum, they make a b-line for britain and b) we are already overcrowded and we can't 'help' everyone. As taxpayers foot the bills isn't it about time we had some say in it, instead of paying for people to live in this country (one way or another) or paying to get shot? Hadrian had the right idea, just didn't build the f in wall high enough.

I think sharon law is the least of our worries, soon enough there'll be the serious danger of a civil war based on religion. I've nothing against muslims per se, just all too wary of their beliefs and practices. For that reason alone a few asians I wouldn't mind f'in I'll have to pass on, never know what consequences that could have in terms not of them but their relatives and their belief structures. Maybe Alien Nation was more relevant to our society than 1984.....................................

[Number 9]

If this goes ahead I hope they get tw@tted everywhere feckin scumbags.

http://www.islam4uk.com/current-affairs ... sett-march

Islam4UK, a platform for the global front Al-Muhajiroun, would like to announce the launch of a momentous march that is scheduled to take place in the following weeks, details of which will be released shortly inshaa'allah (God willing).

The destination of this very special event is the small market town of Wootton Bassett, located 6 miles Southwest of Swindon, in northern Wiltshire; Wootton Bassett, is currently famous for its public mourning processions held in memory of British soldiers killed whilst on military service in Afghanistan; coffins containing the dismembered bodies of these soldiers are usually draped in union jack flags and driven through the town centre from RAF Lyneham, as a tribute to their ‘sacrifice'.

The proposed march by members of Islam4UK is however of a very different venture, held not in memory of the occupying and merciless British military, but rather the real war dead who have been shunned by the Western media and general public as they were and continue to be horrifically murdered in the name of Democracy and Freedom - the innocent Muslim men, women and children.

It is quite extraordinary, that with well over 100,000 Muslims killed in Afghanistan in the last 8 years that those military serviceman who have directly or indirectly contributed to their death are paraded as war heroes and moreover honoured for what is ultimately genocide.

We at Islam4UK find this totally unacceptable and as a result have decided to launch the ‘Wootton Bassett March' to highlight the real casualties of this brutal Crusade.

If you would like more information about the ‘Wootton Bassett March' or are Muslim and would like to take part in it please contact the following numbers:

General Enquiries: 07961 577 221

Media Enquiries: 07956 600 569

Agreed...... I was reading that the other day...a march effectively dancing on the graves of our war dead in our country!
If this goes ahead I hope thousands decend on the town and kick the kunts to death!!

[Judge]

if they introduce sharia law in this country, then we are another step nearer islamification of the UK, and that is unacceptable.

that is not racist, its a fact.

If islam became the dominent religion in this country (tbh, birth rates amongst muslims is higher than christian births), then the queen would be ousted from the throne. Our heritage would be destroyed. I would not want a muslim prime minister in this country, with the queen at the head of the church, you should be of christian religion to run this country.

i am not racist in my comments

[lakes10]

If this goes ahead I hope they get tw@tted everywhere feckin scumbags.

http://www.islam4uk.com/current-affairs ... sett-march

Islam4UK, a platform for the global front Al-Muhajiroun, would like to announce the launch of a momentous march that is scheduled to take place in the following weeks, details of which will be released shortly inshaa'allah (God willing).

The destination of this very special event is the small market town of Wootton Bassett, located 6 miles Southwest of Swindon, in northern Wiltshire; Wootton Bassett, is currently famous for its public mourning processions held in memory of British soldiers killed whilst on military service in Afghanistan; coffins containing the dismembered bodies of these soldiers are usually draped in union jack flags and driven through the town centre from RAF Lyneham, as a tribute to their ‘sacrifice'.

The proposed march by members of Islam4UK is however of a very different venture, held not in memory of the occupying and merciless British military, but rather the real war dead who have been shunned by the Western media and general public as they were and continue to be horrifically murdered in the name of Democracy and Freedom - the innocent Muslim men, women and children.

It is quite extraordinary, that with well over 100,000 Muslims killed in Afghanistan in the last 8 years that those military serviceman who have directly or indirectly contributed to their death are paraded as war heroes and moreover honoured for what is ultimately genocide.

We at Islam4UK find this totally unacceptable and as a result have decided to launch the ‘Wootton Bassett March' to highlight the real casualties of this brutal Crusade.

If you would like more information about the ‘Wootton Bassett March' or are Muslim and would like to take part in it please contact the following numbers:

General Enquiries: 07961 577 221

Media Enquiries: 07956 600 569

Agreed...... I was reading that the other day...a march effectively dancing on the graves of our war dead in our country!
If this goes ahead I hope thousands decend on the town and kick the kunts to death!!

I here there are 200 ex army that are going to make sure that they find out that 99.9 of the UK are not happy with them if they turn up.

[Greavesie]

if they introduce sharia law in this country, then we are another step nearer islamification of the UK, and that is unacceptable.

that is not racist, its a fact.

If islam became the dominent religion in this country (tbh, birth rates amongst muslims is higher than christian births), then the queen would be ousted from the throne. Our heritage would be destroyed. I would not want a muslim prime minister in this country, with the queen at the head of the church, you should be of christian religion to run this country.

i am not racist in my comments

you certainly aren't Judge but these days its too easy to be labelled as such. I won't even say things like this to my mates at Uni because their immediate response is calling me racist. I agree with you btw.

How long before we become an ethnic minority in our own country?

[SouthCoastShankly]

if they introduce sharia law in this country, then we are another step nearer islamification of the UK, and that is unacceptable.

that is not racist, its a fact.

If islam became the dominent religion in this country (tbh, birth rates amongst muslims is higher than christian births), then the queen would be ousted from the throne. Our heritage would be destroyed. I would not want a muslim prime minister in this country, with the queen at the head of the church, you should be of christian religion to run this country.

i am not racist in my comments

you certainly aren't Judge but these days its too easy to be labelled as such. I won't even say things like this to my mates at Uni because their immediate response is calling me racist. I agree with you btw.

How long before we become an ethnic minority in our own country?

I totally agree. I harbour no racists feelings to anyone. I have friends of all races.

But what I try very hard not to do is allow my feelings towards extremists views to develop into feelings shared by such scum like the BNP.

The BNP ride on discontent within the public about such matters in this thread, the problem is the BNP stand for more than a unified Britain - they stand for a world similar to what the Nazi's wanted. An ethnic cleansing.

I predominantly blame Labour and their immigration policies that have allowed this sentiment to grow and effectively fund the BNP.

[babu]

Wow.

I work in this industry. In the business side of Islamic Finance and Halal compliant services.

Firstly let me say that I find a lot of the aspects Shariah law, when taken to the extreme, reprehensible.

However, when are only taking about Shariah compliant (or Halal compliant) products and services. In the case above this, is financial products. I think you will find that a lot of the products and services you use these days are Shariah compliant. This does not mean you are under shariah law, far from it. It just means that the products are fair and ethical.

In fact a non-muslim majority country will never implement total shariah law.

Egypt is a muslim majority country and is fiercly secular. Malayisa is muslim majority, and progressive country, but does not implement total shariah law, and not at all on non-muslims. Same with Indonesia, the most populous Muslim country in the world. So I wouldn't worry about UK..

Most people's reaction to this seems to me to be the separate one of immigration, etc.

[Judge]

i would put the great back into britain

[Judge]

if they introduce sharia law in this country, then we are another step nearer islamification of the UK, and that is unacceptable.

that is not racist, its a fact.

If islam became the dominent religion in this country (tbh, birth rates amongst muslims is higher than christian births), then the queen would be ousted from the throne. Our heritage would be destroyed. I would not want a muslim prime minister in this country, with the queen at the head of the church, you should be of christian religion to run this country.

i am not racist in my comments

you certainly aren't Judge but these days its too easy to be labelled as such. I won't even say things like this to my mates at Uni because their immediate response is calling me racist. I agree with you btw.

How long before we become an ethnic minority in our own country?

I totally agree. I harbour no racists feelings to anyone. I have friends of all races.

But what I try very hard not to do is allow my feelings towards extremists views to develop into feelings shared by such scum like the BNP.

The BNP ride on discontent within the public about such matters in this thread, the problem is the BNP stand for more than a unified Britain - they stand for a world similar to what the Nazi's wanted. An ethnic cleansing.

I predominantly blame Labour and their immigration policies that have allowed this sentiment to grow and effectively fund the BNP.

BNP do not stand for ethnic cleansing at all

eveyone has the right to change policies for the better. Yes when the NF was around they would proudly shout that, but in recent times BNp policy has changed, and that is their democratic right to do so.

there are many things wrong with current party politics, like in labour, tory or liberal, but everyone jumps on the BNP... perhaps they are getting a raw deal from past policies

i mean, germany slaughtered the Jews, but they are running europe now - no one says owt about that. they have been forgiven their past sins, so should the BNP. Otherwise we do not live in a democratic society.
Racism rules this land, what i mean is, that folk to easily shout your racist. that has to stop. they are the dominent force in this country. everything is moulded around minorities to ensure they are not disadvantaged

whay is that? what happened to majority feeling. thats part of democracy. we are a weak society now. Our laws mean nothing, as we are forced to do things that may not be what we want. I have many foreign friends, but i will not be forced by anyone to like someone, just coz its racist not too

if i dont like someone, its not because of their colour, its coz they are a [email]tw@t...thats[/email] it

we need to get to grips with immigration, stop third party marriages of convenience, and spend time getting the 2 million homeless in this country fed and kept warm first, and fu'ck everyone else.

i would cut foreign spending for 5 years, stop immigration indefinately, and not give anyone any money that doesnt deserve some - ie: pay your stamp and u get fed

foreign wasters will be ousted from the UK, unless returning them to their own country would cause their demise. i wouldnt return anyone, if they were to be killed due to ethnic racism in their own country.

spend mone on education, health reforms, and the armed forces. Ensure Britains voice in once again heard in the world, and reduce ties with the USA, to give us our autonomy back.
Withdraw from the EU, and invest in british manufacturing, which will reduce the cost of living over here.

thats for starters

anyone wanna vote for me ??

[andy_g]

i mean, germany slaughtered the Jews, but they are running europe now - no one says owt about that. they have been forgiven their past sins, so should the BNP. Otherwise we do not live in a democratic society.

it wasn't really the germans as a nation that slaughtered the jews (and millions of others), it was the leaders and the followers of the fanatically extremist right wing party that was in power at the time. i'm fairly sure that if a similar party tried to regain power these days then quite a lot would be said about it. in fact i believe the german consitution has a provision which can ban neo-nazi parties form being politically active.

any political body that tries to curb the freedoms and rights of whatever people is, in my opinion, acting wrongly. whether that is the british goverment whittling away the rights of the british people themselves, or refusing the right to a dignified existence for the immigrants it admits, its the same thing.

[Sabre]

it wasn't really the germans as a nation that slaughtered the jews (and millions of others), it was the leaders and the followers of the fanatically extremist right wing party that was in power at the time. i'm fairly sure that if a similar party tried to regain power these days then quite a lot would be said about it. in fact i believe the german consitution has a provision which can ban neo-nazi parties form being politically active.

any political body that tries to curb the freedoms and rights of whatever people is, in my opinion, acting wrongly. whether that is the british goverment whittling away the rights of the british people themselves, or refusing the right to a dignified existence for the immigrants it admits, its the same thing.

Go back to UK, stop robbing our jobs, fúcking our women, and getting tanned with OUR sun.