Liverpool FC Forum

[metalhead]

one thing i do agree on metalhead is george bush, watching him address the university while talking about the innocent victimes just reeked of hypocrisy on a major scale coming from his mouth.

but the problem in the US mate is the constitution which say they all have a right to bear arms

He doesn't give two sh*t about what happened, i think he will forget about it right now and concentrate on iraq.

To answer your question peewee, I would say warn every possible students in campus through any means necessary even if there is NO evidence. I think that would have decreased the tragedies.

[112-1077774096]

they did email mate, but like i say its easy to judge with hindsight, i really do believe they did what they thought was best based on the information they had.

remember this uni is like a small city mate, it even has its own police force and warning everyone was i believe not viable, or required given the information they had

[metalhead]

when the story first broke the media in this country was VERY critical of the University for that 2 hour delay and then only sending out an email to notify.  Once more information came in, it became more clear that there was no evidence that there would be a rampage shooting and in fact they had some reason to believe that the shooter had left campus, which is normally what somebody would do if they had killed someone and was afraid of getting caught.  The univ was working on a TXT message system to send out a message to everyone on campus to their mobile but the system isn't ready yet, I am sure at VT and now all major universities this system will be expidited because it is the best way to get information to a person as fast as possible and almost garunteeing that they will get the info.  One problem would be that you couldnt send a lot of directions at once because of teh size limits of TXT messages especially if sending 25,000 at once

This is a very good system, its adopted here by universities and school, maybe easier here because we don't have really large schools

[metalhead]

they did email mate, but like i say its easy to judge with hindsight, i really do believe they did what they thought was best based on the information they had.

remember this uni is like a small city mate, it even has its own police force and warning everyone was i believe not viable, or required given the information they had

hmm..

now the lebanese media here are raving about the 2 lebanese decendents that were killed, bloody hell, they aren't concentrating more on writing the actual murder that happened 

so peewee, do you think President Bush would do anything about gun control now?

[JoeTerp]

Bush did answer in a quick interview that the gun control issue would certainly come up for debate becuase of this issue but right now is not a good time for debate and using the tradgey for political purposes while the families and students are still mourning

[JoeTerp]

Also Bush can't just say "We are getting rid of guns in this country"  Laws are made by the congress, and congress is limited by the constitution, and any law they make that is "unconstitutional"  can be overturned by the courts, I am not sure how other countries operate but the 3 branches of government ideas I think actually come from France's Baron de Montesquieu   but it is bush's job to make sure that all of the gun laws are being enforced to the fullest extent of the law

[112-1077774096]

as joe has just said metalhead its a constitutional right to bear arms, but even if this wasnt the case i think bush would not do anything about it anyway, the gun companies are too powerful, too much money involved.

but even with more stringent control if people wanted guns they would get them, just look at my city liverpool now, there are fireamrms on the streets and they are used, and we have quite strict laws in relation to firearms

[Bad Bob]

A couple of responses to some points raised above:

1) Metalhead, mate, I understand the frustration and the need to find shortcomings in any system where this happens but there was nothing the university could have done to assure that every one of its students failed to turn up that day for the reasons several people have outlined.  It's also important to consider the flip side.  If a university establishes a policy to text students and cancel classes every time there is an incident or a threat of an incident on campus, you might as shut the school as nothing would ever get done.  At my uni a few years ago, a couple of reprobates figured out that calling in bomb threats during exams kicked up enough fuss to knock the whole exam period out of whack and even get a few exams cancelled.  Any heightened security initiative will fail because troublemakers will exploit the system to reek havoc while true psychopaths, like at VT, will find ways to circumvent even the best security plan and still reach his intended targets.  I'm sorry but there is just no way to make a university campus 100% safe.

2) Peewee, I wonder if the 2 hour gap was due to the fact that the killer was waiting for classes to start?  Everything about this incident seems pre-meditated, particularly given the number of rounds he fired from 2 handguns.  Chaining the doors shut was probably done to give him time to reload/change magazines, which he would have had to do many times over.  It's chilling to think he could do all this...including waiting two hours after committing the initial murders but that seems to be where the evidence is pointing.

3) I don't see much changing with respect to gun control in the US after this, and not just because of Bush.  The fact is, this kid followed the legal procedures for buying two hand guns--weapons that many Americans, including my own in-laws, want to own and carry.  If tougher measures on buying assault rifles and semi-automatics can't get passed in the US, good luck toughening the laws on buying pistols.  Short of a radical rethinking of the Constitution and the place for guns in American culture, nothing will change from this, I'm afraid.  If anything, it may convince a few more paranoid types that they need to have a concealed weapon themselves, to deal with crazies like this when they go off.

[112-1077774096]

yes bob, we can say now that it probably was premeditated, but at the time of the first shooting the authorities could not has seen this.

the reason for the two hour wait is just speculation mate, it has to be, but i am unaware what time the classes start, we can only guess at that. your right that its unlikely to be a spur of the moment thing as he had the ammo, he had the chains etc

[Bad Bob]

yes bob, we can say now that it probably was premeditated, but at the time of the first shooting the authorities could not has seen this.

Definitely, and that's why you're right to say that the university couldn't have predicted the rampage.  There would have been no evidence at the first crime scene that would have tipped the police off about what was coming.  You can't prevent something that you can't perceive happening and anyone that suggests that the first killings clearly foreshadowed the later rampage are mistaking hindsight for insight.

[metalhead]

At my uni a few years ago, a couple of reprobates figured out that calling in bomb threats during exams kicked up enough fuss to knock the whole exam period out of whack and even get a few exams cancelled.

The same situation happened this year here, but given strict instructions our uni's kept everything safe and shut down its campuses.

I agree with you about gun control nothing will be changed, also agree with peewee's gun industry idea, who are too powerful and have alot of money they won't let the law about arms change.

Joe, your an american citizen, can't the people change this?

[66-1120597113]

Guns will never be banned in the USA!

Its too late now any way,there are probably more guns than people around now.Its sad the way things have gone in that country but its more unusual not to have a gun than to actually have one!
People can legally buy 12 a year.

RIP to all those that died...what a waste.

There was a point raised today on TV that made me think think a bit....A British journo was hammering this American guy about the guns in society over there!


The US guy came out and said that guns in US save as many lives as they take with people defending themselves,homes and families from criminals...maybe a fact after all but then its a sad outlook to have as well.....Doubt things will change in the shorterm though!

[JoeTerp]

Apparently he had been examined and determined to be medically ill and a danger to others. he had a history of stalking and several complaints about his very odd actions his teachers had noticed his demented and grotesque writing and reported it but nothing was done, and since he hadn't ever been convicted of a crime when background checks were done when he bought the guns no red flags came up, i think that is something that HAS to and hopefully will change where the gun background check will go through MANY different tests including the persons mental health.

He also mailed in a video, pictures and a word document to NBC in between the the double murder and the massacre.  The manifesto was a long 1800 word rambling with lots of profanity and none of it flows or makes sense and if filled with stuff like:  “I didn’t have to do this. I could have left. I could have fled. But no, I will no longer run. It’s not for me. For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you f---, I did it for them,”

“You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today,” Cho says. “But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off.”

full story

[dawson99]

remembering what school was like for me, if guns had been available here, it would have been ten times worse than whats happening in usa... plus, the real bad point of this is that it happens there every day. Look at the schools in the poorer neighbourhoods and id guaruntee there are shootings on an almost daily basis, but as soon as it happens somewhere not lower class its all over the news. ok it was to more people, but its post office syndrome... people are mad.

[66-1112520797]

I saw a quick interview with the bloke who sold the gun to the teenager, all legal BTW.

His response was ' The 25,000 students in that university should all be carrying guns , that way it would deter people walking in to places like this going on shooting spree's'.

That just sums up the Yanks for me, sorry Joe no offence.