Liverpool FC Forum

[metalhead]

Hmm, I think I'll give that one a miss, then.

^^ This.

Folks. While I appreciate those who tries to understand Islam as a religion, but they really should accept it as it is, a peaceful religion. From where I'm coming from, Islam is not about understanding, its more about faith. An ustaz once told me, "other religion is about 'seeing, than believing'. Whilst Islam is about 'believing than seeing'". Islam is not for about logic, it is not in our ability/capacity to understand it, as a whole. Those who don't understand that, I can't really says represent the religion in general.

Believe me when I say there is more to Islam than what is being projected today. It's not about war or killing or violence. We are first a servant to God and a 'khalifah'/representative to his religion here on earth. Among other duties entrusted upon a muslim is to be successful here on earth and later in the after life. And to do that we must do/fulfill god wishes at the same time excel in everyday life/civilization.

Muslims are to be responsible for their actions, here in life, as they will be judged upon it in as a pass to enter heaven or hell. So we must be kind to women, thoughtful to our children, have empathy towards others but at the same time we must protect our religion should it be oppressed ie. Palestine, but that is another story.

There are many ill inform interpretations in these pages and I am not saying I know all the answers. I don't. But to see Islam and the quran being generalized or deformed as some of the replies above has really made me want to write this. Really folks, say your piece and leave Islam as it is. If you really want to know more about Islam, there is more to it than I could possibly explain it at the best of my abilities, so I would suggest you ask the local muslim cleric/teacher instead of coming out out with assumptions.

This does not make me/muslims any better or worse than any of you. Its just as it is. This is just not the place to be talking about it.

Hi Keris I think you missed most of the argument in this thread, the argument we are having here that a poster claims Islam is a violent religion because extremists like Al Qaeda and Taliban use the Quran to kill innocent people. As a muslim myself I tried to debunk this assumption and explain that Islam does not preach the killings of innocent non-believers or others.
Like you said I myself don't have the answers to all the questions and if I have to explain the Quran to everyone it would take me years to completely understand it. Its best to speak to an Imam or a cleric.

[Kenny Kan]

Thank you for your reply Keris and Metalhead about this discussion.

I will try and endeavor to leave this thread now as I believe I've now made my point - or tried too. And it's not to incite hate, it's not to cause trouble it's just explore a much broader context of things (such as Islam) and see how and why it is portrayed or can be portrayed by bigoted, racial, hate mongering uneducated fools like myself. 

I'll leave my point once more with this: If passages in the Koran (as shown below) and others like them were never written into existance, do you believe suicide bombers and the like would be blowing themselves up in the name of Allah?

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

[metalhead]

I don't know the answer to your last question. However I tried my best explaining the verses to you and that you have to see what it says before and after the verse to interpret correctly.

I'm sure there a lot of mosques in Australia, I advise you go speak to an Imam or cleric ask him these questions (of course not provoke him directly) and hear his response

[Keris]

Hi Keris I think you missed most of the argument in this thread, the argument we are having here that a poster claims Islam is a violent religion because extremists like Al Qaeda and Taliban use the Quran to kill innocent people. As a muslim myself I tried to debunk this assumption and explain that Islam does not preach the killings of innocent non-believers or others.
Like you said I myself don't have the answers to all the questions and if I have to explain the Quran to everyone it would take me years to completely understand it. Its best to speak to an Imam or a cleric.

You're right, I wasn't trying to reply to the point, I was just merely expressing my view of the unsuitability of this forum to engage on sensitive (given the current climate) matter such as Islam. It is not to say that Islam in an untouchable matter to non-muslims but it's just that no one here, including you MH and especially me are not the right person to explain to others on such matter. Sure we can explain it at a superficial level but as you know Islam is more than that.

And just like you, I was also trying to point out that in essence Islam is not a violent religion. Yes, it touches on the matters such as 'going to war' but as you are aware, a true muslim does not incite war just by claiming it is decreed in the Quran but only after exhausting other/all diplomatic/civilize means. Even in war Islam has stipulation before it could be considered as Jihad. For example, only kill the enemy who are armed and not kill innocent women & children and there in-lies the problem with Al-Qaeda. Though it consist of people proclaiming to be 'muslims' but in reality they does not portray/act like what a true Islam really is. They claim to follow the Quran to rid the world of infidels but they don't even have empathy or have not even tried to entice non-muslims to see it 'our' way, through education and exposure.

There are many levels and degree of Islam folks. I assure you, War would be the last matter that muslim would get involve in.

[Keris]

Kenny Kan, I'll just touch on your quote from a very superficial level, I hope you can except my explanation.

I see your post is 2 separate matter.

1. The passages.
From what I see, the passages you quoted are concerning matters of great Sin. For example, the was a quote of idolatry. Although idolatry is common these day but we cannot deny its negative impact on our lives. Families have been broken just because we think with our head between our legs. Islam sees idolatry as a serious matters because it does not only concern our feelings but also involves the feelings and well being of others, say our children (should there be a divorce), our parents and how about the feelings of the women involved?

Even if one is caught having a scandal, Muslims are not expected to follow passages literally, of course the person/s involved are given the chance to defend themselves and as a last resort they are also given the chance to atone themselves even before we can 'lay a finger on them'. The problem is with repeat offenders who just cannot learn from their mistakes. What should we do with someone who just can't stop spreading their seed? Even to our sisters or daughters.

What about 'War' on the Infidels?
Muslims believe Islam is the only true religion (lets not get into who is right or wrong here, that is another matter). Only through Islam one can be saved from hell. Muslims are demanded not only to protect their brothers and sisters/families from being condemn into hell by apostatizing Islam but also to protect their religion from external factors corroding its believe or outside oppression spewing hate and lies against it. Believe me folks when we talk about hate against Islam, we REALLY MEAN HATE AGAINST ISLAM. But, again, Islam only wishes to protect itself and its followers. Islam have been in existence since the dawn of time, should it cannot co-exist with non-muslims, do you really think we could sit comfortably in our chairs now and conversing about it in peace?

2. Suicide Bombers.
I don't really think suicide bombers exists because of passages from a book. But I do believe they exists because of war and oppression maybe economically or maybe politically. I don't reckon anyone with a full stomach wants to be a suicide bomber. Does the Quran site 'go to war just because we don't see eye to eye?' no. As a muslim I don't believe that. Hand me a rifle and tell me to do so and I will shoot you myself We are a thinking religion mate, imprints of the influence of Islam can be trance in economy, science and politics, even in astronomy and in the advancement of civilization.

Again Kenny, this is not the be all and end all explanation of Islam. There is much more to this than meets the eye. I don't expect you to understand it but I really hope you can accept Islam as it is and believe me Kenny, we mean you no harm.

[metalhead]

a true muslim does not incite war just by claiming it is decreed in the Quran but only after exhausting other/all diplomatic/civilize means. Even in war Islam has stipulation before it could be considered as Jihad. For example, only kill the enemy who are armed and not kill innocent women & children and there in-lies the problem with Al-Qaeda. Though it consist of people proclaiming to be 'muslims' but in reality they does not portray/act like what a true Islam really is. They claim to follow the Quran to rid the world of infidels but they don't even have empathy or have not even tried to entice non-muslims to see it 'our' way, through education and exposure.

There are many levels and degree of Islam folks. I assure you, War would be the last matter that muslim would get involve in.

Exactly

There are many levels and degree of Islam folks. I assure you, War would be the last matter that muslim would get involve in.

Keris, if your still interested in reading this thread check page 9 on how I tried to explain to everyone the essence of the verses mentioned in the Quran, sure its a lengthy one but at least I tried to make my point clear

[Greavesie]

is this still about Bin Laden?

[Keris]

a true muslim does not incite war just by claiming it is decreed in the Quran but only after exhausting other/all diplomatic/civilize means. Even in war Islam has stipulation before it could be considered as Jihad. For example, only kill the enemy who are armed and not kill innocent women & children and there in-lies the problem with Al-Qaeda. Though it consist of people proclaiming to be 'muslims' but in reality they does not portray/act like what a true Islam really is. They claim to follow the Quran to rid the world of infidels but they don't even have empathy or have not even tried to entice non-muslims to see it 'our' way, through education and exposure.

There are many levels and degree of Islam folks. I assure you, War would be the last matter that muslim would get involve in.

Exactly

There are many levels and degree of Islam folks. I assure you, War would be the last matter that muslim would get involve in.

Keris, if your still interested in reading this thread check page 9 on how I tried to explain to everyone the essence of the verses mentioned in the Quran, sure its a lengthy one but at least I tried to make my point clear

Its all good mate.

Although I have a question for you (totally unrelated, of course).

I know its none of my damn business, but it just struck me how could you talk about doing the Umra in this thread but at the same time talk about being struggling to be sober in another?

Am not trying to judge you or anything, you do whatever it is you want to do its just that I'm wondering the thinking behind that, alcohol & ka'abah from the same person? If you could just indulge me. Thanks.

[metalhead]

very good question mate, and you got me on that one big time   I don't want to make any excuses or anything the thread was a tongue in a cheek type of comment anyways and I usually have the occasional drink from time to time (only on special occasions, god forgive me for it). However, I felt I needed to do the Umra at least to reconnect with my faith and experience it.

[Keris]

:laugh:

very good question mate, and you got me on that one big time   I don't want to make any excuses or anything the thread was a tongue in a cheek type of comment anyways and I usually have the occasional drink from time to time (only on special occasions, god forgive me for it). However, I felt I needed to do the Umra at least to reconnect with my faith and experience it.

Well, I hope you found everything that you hope for.

My uncle once asked me if there was anything he could doa for me since he was doing his Haj. I asked for number 19. Still waiting though. 

[Emerald Red]

2. Suicide Bombers.
I don't really think suicide bombers exists because of passages from a book. But I do believe they exists because of war and oppression maybe economically or maybe politically. I don't reckon anyone with a full stomach wants to be a suicide bomber. Does the Quran site 'go to war just because we don't see eye to eye?' no. As a muslim I don't believe that. Hand me a rifle and tell me to do so and I will shoot you myself We are a thinking religion mate, imprints of the influence of Islam can be trance in economy, science and politics, even in astronomy and in the advancement of civilization.

Good answer. I was going to write a similar thing to this. One of the first and most famous documentations of suicide bombings came in WW2 when the Japanese would run into the front lines of US forces and blow themselves up. Circumstances dictate those kinds of actions, not the religion. All the religion does is give them the mental will power to do it, or the balls in other words.

[Kenny Kan]

2. Suicide Bombers.
I don't really think suicide bombers exists because of passages from a book. But I do believe they exists because of war and oppression maybe economically or maybe politically. I don't reckon anyone with a full stomach wants to be a suicide bomber. Does the Quran site 'go to war just because we don't see eye to eye?' no. As a muslim I don't believe that. Hand me a rifle and tell me to do so and I will shoot you myself We are a thinking religion mate, imprints of the influence of Islam can be trance in economy, science and politics, even in astronomy and in the advancement of civilization.

Good answer. I was going to write a similar thing to this. One of the first and most famous documentations of suicide bombings came in WW2 when the Japanese would run into the front lines of US forces and blow themselves up. Circumstances dictate those kinds of actions, not the religion. All the religion does is give them the mental will power to do it, or the balls in other words.

Kamikazes are of a totally different context altogether. They would be shot, their plane would be going down anyway. It's totally different.

[Ciggy]

The reason that Islam and the Quran get the blame is because these terrorists and fundamentalists be it via a website or protest proclaim they want to kill everyone in the name of Allah that is the reason most people think the Quran is dodgy.

What also makes people angry is asylum seekers come to Britain then protest on the streets saying they want to kill us and Jihad is on its way, then we have muslims born and bred in Britain, and muslim converts brainwashed thinking the same way, a westener could not do this (not that they would want to) in a muslim country they want Sharia Law in Britain and for Britain to be an Islamic State this cause's so many problems on so many levels.  And these people proclaim its all in the name of Allah.

These are the reasons Islam gets a bad name, its up to muslims and the Arab world to be totally against these lunatics views because keeping quiet about it makes most westeners think every muslim believes in the same thing.

[Reg]

Inadequacy.  Ill-equipped for the modern world. Unable to relate to ones peers. Insufficiently well educated to compete either socially or in the workplace. Easily manipulated.

There are numerous social studies on what makes a person pass from being part of the crowd to a vengeful fanatic.

[metalhead]

Inadequacy.  Ill-equipped for the modern world. Unable to relate to ones peers. Insufficiently well educated to compete either socially or in the workplace. Easily manipulated.

There are numerous social studies on what makes a person pass from being part of the crowd to a vengeful fanatic.

Its the biggest issue, preying on the uneducated and the poor.

its up to muslims and the Arab world to be totally against these lunatics views because keeping quiet about it makes most westeners think every muslim believes in the same thing.

Do you think a simple and moderate Muslim isn't trying to help in stopping this? A lot of denouncing is happening and other movements but the media does not really care what moderates say or do, they go for the bigger story, which is capturing the ''hillbillies'' of the Middle East.