Liverpool FC Forum

[Kenny Kan]

I'm not gonna like Kenny.  You sound very ignorant.  Just because a small group of people have made bad choices doesn't mean the whole group are bad

Sorry you feel that way. Once again I'm not tarnishing ALL Muslims with the same brush. I'm just saying that after reading quotes from the Koran I can see why there are extremists fighting in the name of Allah. It's not really that hard to read or even interpret, it's easy to see why the extremists think the way they do, and I still believe that Islam condolences violence. But hey, because it's Islam I'm critiquing it's morally wrong and politically incorrect to do so, therefore we should just fault find Christianities short comings instead. Its easier and better just to pick holes in Western religions.

[Kenny Kan]

Speaking of bin Laden...

Strange how many people are celebrating a mans death.  Don't get me wrong, I'm happy as hell he's gone, but it doesn't seem like we are celebrating for the right reasons.  It's closure and comfort for those affected and we should remember those people for what happened to them.  bin Laden doesn't deserve all the attention he has received. 

I hate how it was portrayed.. Obama has been an absolute garbage president... and they make it sound like he did the whole thing.  In reality, the most important intel gained was when Bush was in office.  All Obama did was say, "ok take them out, hopefully he's in there and if not we are just killing more innocent people."  They know how bad of a president he's been and they are trying to make people happy with him.

Al Queda is nowhere near done.  bin Laden was an image and it is a hit to them.  I think many will give up, but many will be angered and retaliate.  He wasn't really pulling the strings anymore anyways so it really won't make a difference.  Now they have a reason to come back after us.  Anybody who thinks bin Laden is the one who came up with all the terrorist attacks is an idiot.. he's a smart guy but he has help.  Sure he's the image in charge, but they weren't all his idea.  Other people in his group come up with the ideas and carry them out... he's the image.  He's their Barack Obama.

Agreed, it was sad to see the euphoria behind the mans death on TV, it will only fuel the fire even more.

[Reg]

Surely any progress in destabilising and reducing the effectiveness of the terrorist scurge is to be celebrated?

The peoples of Pakistan and Afghanistan must long for the day they can relax and go about their normal lives without fear of terror, intimidation or attack and be allowed to educate their wives, sisters and daughters?

Metal, your defense of Islam is correct however it is an indisputable fact that the Madrahasas are producing any number of religious fanatics that are not serving the cause of world peace and harmony between peoples. Its not the faith that is at fault, but the execution of it, as I said in a previous post, the manipulation of impressionable people by those with agendas.

[maypaxvobiscum]

so what's your point? earlier on the first page you commented that Islam is a violent religion. now you're agreeing with me, that's it's just those extremists who make it violent. which is which?

BOTH.

no, it cannot be both as the comments contradict each other.

if Islam is a violent religion, then it's being interpreted correctly and that the moderate ones are interpreting it wrong. 

if it's the extremists who interpret it as violent, Islam is not a violent religion since the moderate ones are interpreting it right.

[Kenny Kan]

so what's your point? earlier on the first page you commented that Islam is a violent religion. now you're agreeing with me, that's it's just those extremists who make it violent. which is which?

BOTH.

no, it cannot be both as the comments contradict each other.

if Islam is a violent religion, then it's being interpreted correctly and that the moderate ones are interpreting it wrong. 

if it's the extremists who interpret it as violent, Islam is not a violent religion since the moderate ones are interpreting it right.

BOTH.

end of discussion on this topic, from me anyway.

[metalhead]

The peoples of Pakistan and Afghanistan must long for the day they can relax and go about their normal lives without fear of terror, intimidation or attack and be allowed to educate their wives, sisters and daughters?

Spot on, the people in Afghanistan and Pakistan will be more relieved for what has happened, they are in the sh1t because of Al Qaeda and the U.S, now with a prominent member of the Al Qaeda group is gone they can rest for a while, but for how long I don't know now.

Metal, your defense of Islam is correct however it is an indisputable fact that the Madrahasas are producing any number of religious fanatics that are not serving the cause of world peace and harmony between peoples. Its not the faith that is at fault, but the execution of it, as I said in a previous post, the manipulation of impressionable people by those with agendas.

I agree, I'm not going to deny the fact that there are Madrahsas preying and brainwashing young ones in believing that the West must be destroyed. It seems that these Madrahsas have been established in most poor areas of the world such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan because its easier to manipulate the uneducated and the illiterate, that was Al Qaeda's goal. However, when you look at some gulf states and countries like Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Turkey, Muslim schools there teach about tolerance with other faiths and guidance of lost men. I remember there was a conservative American protestant living in the south of Lebanon, where the region is very conservative towards the Muslim faith. This American used to hand in brochures on the street and tried to spread the word of Christianity among the most conservative of Muslims. However, the people there didn't catch him and behead him, or  burn his house and tried to kick him out, instead they listened to him and  discussed with him about both religion (a debate). This is because the faith teaches that way, to tolerate and not oppress others. Imagine this American was spreading Christianity in an area of Taliban control.

That has to be one of the biggest propaganda bullsh*ts in the history of the modern world.

is right, every action is driven by political motivation, its our nature to strive for more.

It's not really that hard to read or even interpret, it's easy to see why the extremists think the way they do, and I still believe that Islam condolences violence

just read my posts man

[Reg]

The peoples of Pakistan and Afghanistan must long for the day they can relax and go about their normal lives without fear of terror, intimidation or attack and be allowed to educate their wives, sisters and daughters?

Spot on, the people in Afghanistan and Pakistan will be more relieved for what has happened, they are in the sh1t because of Al Qaeda and the U.S, now with a prominent member of the Al Qaeda group is gone they can rest for a while, but for how long I don't know now.

Metal, your defense of Islam is correct however it is an indisputable fact that the Madrahasas are producing any number of religious fanatics that are not serving the cause of world peace and harmony between peoples. Its not the faith that is at fault, but the execution of it, as I said in a previous post, the manipulation of impressionable people by those with agendas.

I agree, I'm not going to deny the fact that there are Madrahsas preying and brainwashing young ones in believing that the West must be destroyed. It seems that these Madrahsas have been established in most poor areas of the world such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan because its easier to manipulate the uneducated and the illiterate, that was Al Qaeda's goal. However, when you look at some gulf states and countries like Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Turkey, Muslim schools there teach about tolerance with other faiths and guidance of lost men. I remember there was a conservative American protestant living in the south of Lebanon, where the region is very conservative towards the Muslim faith. This American used to hand in brochures on the street and tried to spread the word of Christianity among the most conservative of Muslims. However, the people there didn't catch him and behead him, or  burn his house and tried to kick him out, instead they listened to him and  discussed with him about both religion (a debate). This is because the faith teaches that way, to tolerate and not oppress others. Imagine this American was spreading Christianity in an area of Taliban control.

Metal,

We have to differentiate between Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, one is a terror organisation the other political.

The Taliban was formed by the Afghans to cleanse the country post-Soviet occupation and installed severe muslim views, laws and punishments. Al Qaeda appeared in Afghanistan to seek refuge from those already hunting them but allowed them sanctuary to appease them - no other reason.

The Madrahasas in the Afghan/Pak boarder region were set up mainly by Taliban sympathisers and funded by the Saudi Wahabis. The Taliban used the youngsters as troops in the war against Masood, Dostim etc.. prior to 9/11 and were only thrown back by the US as a result of 9/11. They were an internal force.

Al Qaeda was always an external force just using Afghanistan as a training base and sanctuary though ended up using the same Madrahasas to recruit headbangers for international work, including Iraq.   

Killing bin Laden therefore is  major blow to al Qaeda but will impact the Taliban far less. What the Taliban needs to do now is kick them out of Afghanistan then negotiate peace with the US. The recent surge into Pakistan and down to nearly as far as Lahore was not al Qaeda but Taliban, displaced from Afghanistan as the US's own surge worked.

If the Taliban was to turn on al Qaeda and kick them out then moderate its own views and methods then a peace plan could be in the offering. Hence its vital to keep going after the top al Qaeda's men to destabilise them and ultimately break them up.

[dawson99]

The peoples of Pakistan and Afghanistan must long for the day they can relax and go about their normal lives without fear of terror, intimidation or attack and be allowed to educate their wives, sisters and daughters?

Spot on, the people in Afghanistan and Pakistan will be more relieved for what has happened, they are in the sh1t because of Al Qaeda and the U.S, now with a prominent member of the Al Qaeda group is gone they can rest for a while, but for how long I don't know now.

Metal, your defense of Islam is correct however it is an indisputable fact that the Madrahasas are producing any number of religious fanatics that are not serving the cause of world peace and harmony between peoples. Its not the faith that is at fault, but the execution of it, as I said in a previous post, the manipulation of impressionable people by those with agendas.

I agree, I'm not going to deny the fact that there are Madrahsas preying and brainwashing young ones in believing that the West must be destroyed. It seems that these Madrahsas have been established in most poor areas of the world such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan because its easier to manipulate the uneducated and the illiterate, that was Al Qaeda's goal. However, when you look at some gulf states and countries like Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Turkey, Muslim schools there teach about tolerance with other faiths and guidance of lost men. I remember there was a conservative American protestant living in the south of Lebanon, where the region is very conservative towards the Muslim faith. This American used to hand in brochures on the street and tried to spread the word of Christianity among the most conservative of Muslims. However, the people there didn't catch him and behead him, or  burn his house and tried to kick him out, instead they listened to him and  discussed with him about both religion (a debate). This is because the faith teaches that way, to tolerate and not oppress others. Imagine this American was spreading Christianity in an area of Taliban control.

Metal,

We have to differentiate between Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, one is a terror organisation the other political.

The Taliban was formed by the Afghans to cleanse the country post-Soviet occupation and installed severe muslim views, laws and punishments. Al Qaeda appeared in Afghanistan to seek refuge from those already hunting them but allowed them sanctuary to appease them - no other reason.

The Madrahasas in the Afghan/Pak boarder region were set up mainly by Taliban sympathisers and funded by the Saudi Wahabis. The Taliban used the youngsters as troops in the war against Masood, Dostim etc.. prior to 9/11 and were only thrown back by the US as a result of 9/11. They were an internal force.

Al Qaeda was always an external force just using Afghanistan as a training base and sanctuary though ended up using the same Madrahasas to recruit headbangers for international work, including Iraq.   

Killing bin Laden therefore is  major blow to al Qaeda but will impact the Taliban far less. What the Taliban needs to do now is kick them out of Afghanistan then negotiate peace with the US. The recent surge into Pakistan and down to nearly as far as Lahore was not al Qaeda but Taliban, displaced from Afghanistan as the US's own surge worked.

If the Taliban was to turn on al Qaeda and kick them out then moderate its own views and methods then a peace plan could be in the offering. Hence its vital to keep going after the top al Qaeda's men to destabilise them and ultimately break them up.

I don't wanna get into trouble here, but wouldnt that be like the IRA kicking out the real IRA or whatever nutter splinter group it was. There will still be bombs and sh!t, no matter what happens. Just the 'official' party will get more political, whilst the more extreme side will get.. more extreme

[metalhead]

Metal,

We have to differentiate between Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, one is a terror organisation the other political.

The Taliban was formed by the Afghans to cleanse the country post-Soviet occupation and installed severe muslim views, laws and punishments. Al Qaeda appeared in Afghanistan to seek refuge from those already hunting them but allowed them sanctuary to appease them - no other reason.

The Madrahasas in the Afghan/Pak boarder region were set up mainly by Taliban sympathisers and funded by the Saudi Wahabis. The Taliban used the youngsters as troops in the war against Masood, Dostim etc.. prior to 9/11 and were only thrown back by the US as a result of 9/11. They were an internal force.

Al Qaeda was always an external force just using Afghanistan as a training base and sanctuary though ended up using the same Madrahasas to recruit headbangers for international work, including Iraq.   

Killing bin Laden therefore is  major blow to al Qaeda but will impact the Taliban far less. What the Taliban needs to do now is kick them out of Afghanistan then negotiate peace with the US. The recent surge into Pakistan and down to nearly as far as Lahore was not al Qaeda but Taliban, displaced from Afghanistan as the US's own surge worked.

If the Taliban was to turn on al Qaeda and kick them out then moderate its own views and methods then a peace plan could be in the offering. Hence its vital to keep going after the top al Qaeda's men to destabilise them and ultimately break them up.

Agreed Reg, the death of Bin Ladin will not affect Taliban much, as you said they are both different organizations all together.

I was saying that these Madrahsas prey on the weak and the uneducated, so its easier for Taliban or Al Qaeda to spread their ideology.

The Swat valley conflict was done by Taliban.

However, its very unlikely that the Taliban will moderate its views and it will not be easy for them to make peace with the U.S unless there is a motive to do so and I'm talking about American and NATO forces in Afghanistan. If the so called war on terror was about capturing/killing Bin Ladin  then there is no need for any force to stay in Afghanistan. The president of Afghanistan already urged Taliban to make peace with the U.S, but unless the U.S withdraws its army from Afghanistan and Obama is willing to talk to Taliban then peace will be achieved

[Kenny Kan]

The peoples of Pakistan and Afghanistan must long for the day they can relax and go about their normal lives without fear of terror, intimidation or attack and be allowed to educate their wives, sisters and daughters?

Spot on, the people in Afghanistan and Pakistan will be more relieved for what has happened, they are in the sh1t because of Al Qaeda and the U.S, now with a prominent member of the Al Qaeda group is gone they can rest for a while, but for how long I don't know now.

Metal, your defense of Islam is correct however it is an indisputable fact that the Madrahasas are producing any number of religious fanatics that are not serving the cause of world peace and harmony between peoples. Its not the faith that is at fault, but the execution of it, as I said in a previous post, the manipulation of impressionable people by those with agendas.

I agree, I'm not going to deny the fact that there are Madrahsas preying and brainwashing young ones in believing that the West must be destroyed. It seems that these Madrahsas have been established in most poor areas of the world such as Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan because its easier to manipulate the uneducated and the illiterate, that was Al Qaeda's goal. However, when you look at some gulf states and countries like Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Turkey, Muslim schools there teach about tolerance with other faiths and guidance of lost men. I remember there was a conservative American protestant living in the south of Lebanon, where the region is very conservative towards the Muslim faith. This American used to hand in brochures on the street and tried to spread the word of Christianity among the most conservative of Muslims. However, the people there didn't catch him and behead him, or  burn his house and tried to kick him out, instead they listened to him and  discussed with him about both religion (a debate). This is because the faith teaches that way, to tolerate and not oppress others. Imagine this American was spreading Christianity in an area of Taliban control.

That has to be one of the biggest propaganda bullsh*ts in the history of the modern world.

is right, every action is driven by political motivation, its our nature to strive for more.

It's not really that hard to read or even interpret, it's easy to see why the extremists think the way they do, and I still believe that Islam condolences violence

just read my posts man

Sorry MH, I've already been labeled by the 'thought police', may as well stick to my guns and keep up appearances. 

[Reg]

Metal, agree with you however the US invaded Afghanistan to displace the Taliban for 2 reasons, first because they were allowing al Qaeda to operate training camps and base themselves there - hence it was the terror centre of the world and ultimately responsible for 9/11 and 2. because their pre-historic outloook on life banning radio, tv, women rights and stonings ffs was an abhorence to human dignity and international law. Furthermore they were also inevitably going to destabilise central asia which would draw the Russians and China into the conflict.

[metalhead]

Metal, agree with you however the US invaded Afghanistan to displace the Taliban for 2 reasons, first because they were allowing al Qaeda to operate training camps and base themselves there - hence it was the terror centre of the world and ultimately responsible for 9/11 and 2. because their pre-historic outloook on life banning radio, tv, women rights and stonings ffs was an abhorence to human dignity and international law. Furthermore they were also inevitably going to destabilise central asia which would draw the Russians and China into the conflict.

I can't argue with that, I agree with it but I also think there are more incentives for the U.S in Afghanistan (Iran) other than just going there and displace Al Qaeda. In the present Al Qaeda is not fully protected by Taliban anymore and the majority of the Al Qaeda group moved some place else, especially in Yemen where some Yemeni tribes are protecting them. With what I call the ''renaissance'' movement of the Arab world that is happening right now, Al Qaeda's political reform is a failure.

This is an extract from one of Robert Fisk's article

'' But the mass revolutions in the Arab world over the past four months mean that al-Qa'ida was already politically dead. Bin Laden told the world – indeed, he told me personally – that he wanted to destroy the pro-Western regimes in the Arab world, the dictatorships of the Mubaraks and the Ben Alis. He wanted to create a new Islamic Caliphate. But these past few months, millions of Arab Muslims rose up and were prepared for their own martyrdom – not for Islam but for freedom and liberty and democracy. Bin Laden didn't get rid of the tyrants. The people did. And they didn't want a caliph. ''

It is still remain to be seen what will happen, but I doubt that the people who fought so much for freedom would want their country to turn into a caliphate.

I agree about the Taliban, their ideology is very pre-historic even before Islam came to this world, we call it the ''jahiliya'' or the time of ignorance or barbarism. There is no place in Islam that tells you that Women aren't allowed to work, be educated or have a voice.

[ethanr]

Al Queda is nowhere near done.  bin Laden was an image and it is a hit to them.  I think many will give up, but many will be angered and retaliate.  He wasn't really pulling the strings anymore anyways so it really won't make a difference.  Now they have a reason to come back after us.  Anybody who thinks bin Laden is the one who came up with all the terrorist attacks is an idiot.. he's a smart guy but he has help.  Sure he's the image in charge, but they weren't all his idea.  Other people in his group come up with the ideas and carry them out... he's the image.  He's their Barack Obama.

The questions I want answered more than any other is, why, after 9/11, when all flights were grounded, were the entire Bin Laden family allowed to leave?

And why, in all George W. Bush's time he never came close to capturing Osama, and yet Obama has managed to get him, at his home no less.

And why are people questioning Obama? George W. Bush played the idiot to a much too perfect image. And yet Obama is being questioned at every turn he makes.

Or maybe, just maybe, the right questions are being asked to the wrong people. I dont think it matters that Osama is dead. The damage is done.

Disagree with you Karhaz..

All of the intel gained was during the Bush administration.  Every important bit of info about his whereabouts were during the Bush Administration.  Now I'm not saying he's a good president because the guy's a dumbass, but the Bush admin was the one who found bin Laden and they were the ones who didn't want to kill more innocent people in an attack. 

Obama's people watched the house and never even saw bin Laden, they just hoped he was in there based of the information from the Bush admin and they attacked knowing they very well could just be killing more innocent people.

If there were no Al Queda in there, would we have heard about it?  Or would we have blamed on on a terrorist attack that was aimed at the Pakistani base not but a couple miles away?

[Greavesie]

[Bad Bob]

Al Queda is nowhere near done.  bin Laden was an image and it is a hit to them.  I think many will give up, but many will be angered and retaliate.  He wasn't really pulling the strings anymore anyways so it really won't make a difference.  Now they have a reason to come back after us.  Anybody who thinks bin Laden is the one who came up with all the terrorist attacks is an idiot.. he's a smart guy but he has help.  Sure he's the image in charge, but they weren't all his idea.  Other people in his group come up with the ideas and carry them out... he's the image.  He's their Barack Obama.

The questions I want answered more than any other is, why, after 9/11, when all flights were grounded, were the entire Bin Laden family allowed to leave?

And why, in all George W. Bush's time he never came close to capturing Osama, and yet Obama has managed to get him, at his home no less.

And why are people questioning Obama? George W. Bush played the idiot to a much too perfect image. And yet Obama is being questioned at every turn he makes.

Or maybe, just maybe, the right questions are being asked to the wrong people. I dont think it matters that Osama is dead. The damage is done.

Disagree with you Karhaz..

All of the intel gained was during the Bush administration.  Every important bit of info about his whereabouts were during the Bush Administration.  Now I'm not saying he's a good president because the guy's a dumbass, but the Bush admin was the one who found bin Laden and they were the ones who didn't want to kill more innocent people in an attack. 

Obama's people watched the house and never even saw bin Laden, they just hoped he was in there based of the information from the Bush admin and they attacked knowing they very well could just be killing more innocent people.

If there were no Al Queda in there, would we have heard about it?  Or would we have blamed on on a terrorist attack that was aimed at the Pakistani base not but a couple miles away?

Got a source for any of this stuff, mate?  I'm curious and I'd love to read more about it because I find it impossible to believe that all of the relevant intel was put together by an administration that's been out of office for 16 months!   Either you guys have all the patience in the world or something seriously doesn't add up about that story.

What frustrates me with these kinds of moments is how quickly they fall prey to partisan posturing.  The minute something good happens on one guy's watch, the people that backed the other guy are in like a shot to say all the groundwork was laid by their guy and he should get all the credit.  Yet, when things go wrong, it's always the guy in charge now who gets it in the neck.  Rarely do you see people acknowledge that the thing came together with contributions from loads of people, past and present.  It's like the Rafa v. Roy discussion writ large!