Liverpool FC Forum

[Greavesie]

The US flags the wrong way around on the guys arm

I know its Bin Laden and its all good to laugh at him, but the guys picture who's uploaded the pic (second one) seems ike he's begging for a bit of stick

[metalhead]

Ok, I will start with the earlier comments on here then go on and explain the verses that Kenny Kan posted so we can clear any misunderstanding or any misinterpretation. I'm no expert in the Quran, as I'm not very close to my religion, but I will try my best to explain the misconception about Islam being a violent religion.

After world war I his family had to either convert to Muslim beliefs or be exiled from Turkey, they chose to exile Turkey because they didn't want to be oppressed by the Muslim belief.

so basically he had an agenda to try to tarnish a religion, just look at it in a neutral point of view then. Do you see Saudi Arabia trying to force anyone living there to convert to Islam? Do you see Iran doing it? Iran is even more diverse than Saudi with more Christians and Jews, but the government doesn't force them to change religion because its AGAINST GOD.

Hence the reason of killing Bin Laden won't quell other orthodox Islamics, the followers of the faith are not listening to one man like him. As MH said they are on their own, splinter cells, separate entities, their guidance and belief comes from the Koran.

The influence of Bin Ladin or Al Queda has changed  some of the muslim's perception of the Quran and interpreted the same way Bin Ladin did, that's why we are seeing more separate entities. If this has been stopped before, it would be less likely that these separate entities existed. Bin Ladin's is driven by political means and not religious, he uses the book as an excuse to oppress others and to establish an Islamic Caliphate, which is his ultimate dream. He uses the book to an extreme that he believes all non-believers should be destroyed and an Islam rule should be established through out the world. During the Abbasid and Ummayad empires, lands that have been conquered by both empires did not force non-muslims living in those lands to convert, but they gave them a choice that if they did convert to Islam they are exempted from taxes. Non believers also were told that if they convert they are exempted from doing any military service. They even had their institutions intact and were treated the same but with other rules and they welcomed this rule because it gave them a different status and were protected. because according to the Quran God does not force anyone to change faith, God gave us free will and everyone will be judged in judgment day. Islam does not oppose freedom of thought. Most Arab Muslim thinkers of the Renaissance age used freedom of thought to express themselves in poetry and science, no Imam opposed them. I advice anyone to watch Dr. Zakir Naik on youtube who basically puts in perspective Islam and Terrorism and how its a misconception.

Jesus forgives thy enemy or something along those lines and doesn't tell followers to kill non-conformists, the Koran does. Do you get my point now or are you still on that pedestal of yours?

[Qur'an 2:192] "But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

[Qur'an 2:193] "And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression."

It easy to interpret, fight the OPPRESSORS, if they stop forgive them and be merciful.

lets put that accusation to bed now please

I maintain Islam isn't a peaceful religion as it states the killing if non-believers & conformists. What or how Muslim people do with it is a different matter. There are millions of moderate Muslims, there are extremists too but these extremists are orthodox, carrying out everything the Koran preaches.

This is where the misconception is, the Koran does not preach  the killings of any non-believers or does it tell you to slay anyone you see on the road who is a ''kafir''.

[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

I highlighted the 2 bold sentences because its important to understand that in the Quran aggression for no cause or for no reason is a sin and will be dealt with in judgment day.

In the Quran it says that ''who ever slays a soul, unless it be for murder or mischief in the land, it is as though he slew entire mankind; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept entire mankind alive (Quran 5:32)

This specifically states that killing an innocent human being is against humanity and the person will be sent to hell.

Moreover, The Quran promotes peace amongst muslims and non-muslims

[Qur'an 60:8] "God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable."

[Qur'an 49:13] "O mankind! We created you from a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes that you may know and honor each other (not that you should despise one another). Indeed the most honorable of you in the sight of God is the most righteous."

God created us to learn from each other, to live in piece and to live in prosperity, he does not want to us to use aggression to one another.

[Qur'an 25:63] "And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, 'Peace!'"

The ignorant are the Jews and Christians, we call them ignorant or lost because we think that both religions were infiltrated, but it doesn't mean we should slay them, the verse it self explains that if a muslim meets a non-muslim there should be peace.

[Qur'an 4:90] "Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them."

Don't fight the innocent, embrace them and offer peace, but if they chose to fight you, fight the oppression.

[Book 019, Hadith Number 4319, Chapter: Prohibition of killing women and children in war.]

"It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him). He disapproved of the killing of women and children."

In the Quran, God disapprove the killings of women and children, its considered a monstrous act and a bad deed to humanity.

In Chapter 9, which is Soora Al Tawba you disregard the early verses of the soora,where prophet Mohammed (pbuh) talks about making a peace treaty  between believers and pagans. While you go on and read through the chapter this treaty does not materialize because the pagans do not accept it and that is a decleration of war. Then in verse 5 it says to fight them, which means Jihad. Remember that Jihad does not mean holy war, in the Quran there are no such thing as holy war, Jihad means struggle, or fighting the struggle and fighting the oppression.

[Qur'an 9:5] "If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge."

You see in the end of the verse that if the pagans ask for peace, give it to them and offer them peace because these men are lost. Why would we preach killings of non-believers when we want to teach Islam to the world?

and it goes on...

[Qur'an 9:10] "n a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds."
[Qur'an 9:13] "Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

Its crystal clear, fight the oppression, fight for defending your faith, wouldn't you have done the same if someone tries to force you to do something that you don't want?

[Qur'an 10:99] "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!"

Free Will! god greatest gift to mankind, the Quran strictly forbids offensive wars or forced conversions. The wars we have read in the past (crusaders, salaheddine, etc...) are politically driven rather than driven by religion, but mankind uses religion as an excuse to exercise power, its OUR will and not God's.

Now the last part I will try to explain the verses Kenny Kan mentioned to clear any misunderstanding

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

its a misunderstanding, chapter 2, or soorat al baqara (the cow) talks about the story of Moses and the Jews and how Moses one day found the jews worshiping a golden cow. The chapter goes on about how pagans will be dealt by god and the hypocrites who show pride and arrogance will be judged in judgment day. This verse is one verse of the whole, you need to look at the bigger picture

“And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.” (Qur’an, 2:190-192)''

You have to look at the historical context of the verse, during this time the muslim community was small and was oppressed by the pagans such as robbing their houses, looting the dead, etc... Even prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was hesitated to fight the oppression, in the city of Taef he was spit at and abused but he did not fight, not until God gave him the permission to do so, to defend himself from the oppression : “Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them.” (Qur’an, 22:39)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

If you die for a cause, you die as a martyr, the British who died in WW1 and WW2 were martyrs because they fought for their country and fought for a cause. The same goes to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) when he fought against the oppression. This verse basically states that if you fight in the name of God against the oppression its worth more than gold, nothing here that tells you to kill non-believers randomely

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

This is also a misunderstanding, , Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)  said that a person will follow the belief of his close friend, so he should be careful about who he befriends. For example, a muslim being best friends with a non-believer and the non-believer tries to convince the muslim that there is no such thing as God and the muslim starts believing his friend because he trust him. The verse explains that we should be careful not to go astray, but it does not mean that we shouldn't be friends, muslims can still be friends with anyone they like as long as they don't go astray.

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

same as the above and I will add this

“Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah (God) and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” (Qur’an, 2:62)

Muslims acknowledge other faiths and believers of God will be treated equally.

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

I think Bam you understood this in the wrong way, the non-believers are not the ones who will incur the wrath of god, but the believers will if they kill someone in a cowardly way or kill the injured. During the battles as you stated, Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) told his followers to fight from the front, to treat the wounded after the battle, to pray for the dead and to guide the men without knowledge. There was no pride or glory, or heads on a stick near camp, this is all b*llox. In the battles, if any muslim kills the injured or kills for revenge will incur the wrath of God and will be condemned to hell

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

where is the preaching of killing people in this? It is fair to say that the Islam faith believe its blasphemy to think that Jesus was son of God, nothing wrong with that and there is nothing to prove that we should go to war against the Christians for that matter.

I just took a few quotes Kenny Kan posted just to clear some misconception, the other quotes are in very similar origins and been explained by me above. I hope it clarifies a lot, Islam does not preach the killings of non-believers just because they don't believe in God, killing the innocent is denounced and is considered the biggest sin (see above). People need to understand that the Quran speaks about fighting the oppression and the struggle. I hope it changes some people perception about the religion. People like Al Qaeda do not follow the Quran, its an excuse to exercise their power in the world and to set their extremist principles to many other muslims and non-muslims, the moderate muslims consider it oppression and as Robert Fisk stated in one of his articles the fight against oppression has begun in the Arab world.

[SouthCoastShankly]

Busted.

[tubby]

[Greavesie]

I'm looking forward to him quoting all of that with his response

[7_Kewell]

the pictures of a supposedly dead Bin Laden are FAKE.

[tubby]

Yeah all fake so far. The real ones should come out soon enough. This was the original.



Just heard now on the radio they are thinking of releasing them.

[Zidane]

Eh.  I don't think it really matters much in regards to the actual war, but I suppose it's a big lift for Americans.

[Kharhaz]

Makes you wonder about George W Bush doesnt it. When 9/11 happened he let all the bin ladens leave america before they were questioned, and in all his time as president they didnt come close to getting osama. Barak Obama has been in charge a short while and BANG osama is dead.

As for the Americans celebrating, I can understand why, osama was the face of evil. But the celebrations are premature I think. Although the tumour is cut out, the cancer has spread.

[7_Kewell]

How can they release the pictures of him?  They blew half his head off and even the American top brass have said it's 'grim'

[Kenny Kan]

I'm looking forward to him quoting all of that with his response

No chance 

Funny how every ''non-believer'' passage is ''misinterpreted'', I don't believe it, I read what it says and it's as plain as the nose on your face, no point trying to twist it.

By all means sell it to the naive like SCS and Dawson as peaceful. 

Edited this part - it's bad enough arguing the to$$ and I shouldn't slate a faith I don't practice, I just see the faith as needing to be dragged into the 21st century and updated. Sharia law still endorses the stoning of women for adultery.

[Greavesie]

that about sums up my feelings on the matter

[tubby]

I'm looking forward to him quoting all of that with his response

No chance 

Funny how every ''non-believer'' passage is ''misinterpreted'', I don't believe it, I read what it says and it's as plain as the nose on your face, no point trying to twist it.

By all means sell it to the naive like SCS and Dawson as peaceful. 

Sorry mate, just as Islam blasphemes, so to will I, I think Islam is a twisted, cowardly, and damn right backward faith where violence is condoned and women are treated like s.hit.

Fair enough. But just so you know, your reading it wrong. 

It's a bit like someone insisting the alphabet goes acb and not abc. Whatever floats your boat though. 

[Kenny Kan]

I'm looking forward to him quoting all of that with his response

No chance 

Funny how every ''non-believer'' passage is ''misinterpreted'', I don't believe it, I read what it says and it's as plain as the nose on your face, no point trying to twist it.

By all means sell it to the naive like SCS and Dawson as peaceful. 

Sorry mate, just as Islam blasphemes, so to will I, I think Islam is a twisted, cowardly, and damn right backward faith where violence is condoned and women are treated like s.hit.

Fair enough. But just so you know, your reading it wrong. 

It's a bit like someone insisting the alphabet goes acb and not abc. Whatever floats your boat though. 

How can the quotes I posted from the Koran be read wrong?

What is it that people don't understand about the condolence of violence to non-believers from the text I showed, it's plain, it's right there in print. Hence the reason you have ''extremists'' extremists doesn't mean that a bunch of blokes have made something up from nothing, they have taken their understanding from the Koran and used it to extreme measures, and after reading that (the quotes) I can see why they have done this as it more or less tells them too.

It's simple really. There is no real ''misinterpretation'' of the book in fact it's quite laconic in what it says.

[7_Kewell]

ok, i'm not going to wade into the Muslim debate too much, because i haven't read it.

However, i did live with a couple of Muslim guys at uni and I did discuss 9/11 and Isarel and a whole load of other stuff.

They said it's important to remember that:


-The Quran is written in Arabic and many Arabic words can have varying meanings. Just like the Bible...

- People will read, pick and choose parts of a religion to fit their own agenda. Did bin Ladin care about Muslims all over the world? Did he hell, he wanted his own country and war...

And, beyond all...Peace-loving and innocent non-Muslims are to be treated with justice and kindness, otherwise the Muslims would be committing a sin. Allah Almighty's Holy Commands, "For Allah loveth Those who are just".