Liverpool FC Forum

[76-1115222408]

think about this, he was leaving flats where the bombers were beleived to be or had some links with,

The key word in that sentence is 'believed'. They also 'beleived' he was a terrorist. BUT WERE WRONG!!!

how wrong he was haha

You are not being serious are you??  An innocent man has lost his life!!!  WTF!!! 

[112-1077774096]

think about this, he was leaving flats where the bombers were beleived to be or had some links with,

The key word in that sentence is 'believed'. They also 'beleived' he was a terrorist. BUT WERE WRONG!!!

how wrong he was haha

You are not being serious are you??  An innocent man has lost his life!!!  WTF!!! 

you seem to missing a major point here. when the police shot him they did not have the ability of hindsght. they did what was right for themselves and the public in the area.

obviously from reading your earlier post you have been a naughty boy in the past and maybe that where your ideas are coming from on this subject.

now lets just imagine you were on that train, and he was a bomber intent on killing himself and others, i suppose you want the police to stop him, find out that he understands, then caution him, then tell him that you are going to search him for which he can have a copy of the search record either now or collect it later.

BOOM

do you see what happend while all that was going on?

use your head.


you ask why he wasnt stopped outside the property, you obviously know nothing about this subject. the purpose of being undercover is to be undercover. the place was under surveilance. in your reckoning the police should have turned up in marked cars with lights and sirens blaring and just warn everyone that they are being watched,

can i ask that before you reply to this post you actually think about your reply, i was a police officer so i know how these things work and what is expected and like i said in an earlier post i dont really care that the guy was killed. he had the option to stop, the police identified themselves and he took the option to run towards a tube train and in this current climate i dont really see any other outcome. you also go on to blame intelligence for labeling the guy a terrorist. at no point was he labeled a terrorist, he wasnt a target so intelligence was not wrong. he was a guy who fitted a description that came out of premises that were being used by suspected terrorists who refused to stop when approached by police. it always comes back to the same thing, he refused to stop for the police and in the current climate that was a big mistake. i wonder what you would have done in the polices situation. it seems you would have risked death and carnage. although i understand your point, you also need to understand that you are dealing with hindsight. the police never had that.

the duty of the police is to uphold the law and preservation of life and property. i am sure the decision wasnt taken lightly but the guy who shot him has to live with that, but he did the right thing at the time.

i imagine if they hadnt shot him and he was a bomber and he killed another 50 innocent people you would also criticise the police.

get the chip of your shoulder from whatever happend in the past. by your own admission you have done things that warrant police investigation and once you fall in that category you will never fall out of it. but again its a choice that was made by you and no one forced you into it.

please thing about this, the police do get things wrong, they are human, they are drawn from society to protect society but as long as what they did at the time was borne from a genuine belief that it was the right thing then you can forgive them. its when they act dishonetly that we can critisice them.

[76-1115222408]

I was just about to go to bloody sleep FFS!!!!    

obviously from reading your earlier post you have been a naughty boy in the past and maybe that where your ideas are coming from on this subject.

Nothing to do with it, but then again you are a former policeman so would expect you to say as much!

now lets just imagine you were on that train, and he was a bomber intent on killing himself and others, i suppose you want the police to stop him, find out that he understands, then caution him, then tell him that you are going to search him for which he can have a copy of the search record either now or collect it later.

Stop bein stupid you prat, there is no need for sarcasm just because someone disagrees with you. I know what you are trying to imply anyway and i will not rise to it and let it go. As i said before what i would expect from ex-Fed (i will use that instead of police/policeman from now on ok!! its shorter and its late!)

you ask why he wasnt stopped outside the property, you obviously know nothing about this subject. the purpose of being undercover is to be undercover. the place was under surveilance. in your reckoning the police should have turned up in marked cars with lights and sirens blaring and just warn everyone that they are being watched,

You tell me to use my head....WTF......Look yea fair enough they were undercover, but does that mean you dont intercept in 'such climates'. Your argument is flawed because they blew theie cover when they (supposedly)asked him to stop. So what was the difference in stopping him when about to enter a packed tube station and outside or (so as not to blow their cover) close to his property?. Maybe you will argue he could have led them to further places of inquiry (which would be a fair argument i suppose!) but the thing is (that you seem to forget!) that he GOT ON A BUS FIRST!!!! So what are the passengers of the bus LESS important than those on a tube??  Or is it that there would be less killed on a bus than a tube, so thats ok??   If they were doing their job properly he would have been apprehended whilst waiting at the bus stop, as it was obvious he was about to board a bus which in these times IS a target!!!  Explain that to me please!!
I think they were UNSURE if he was a possible suspect or not and ONLY at the last minute (as is the norm with the feds) did they decide to act!

can i ask that before you reply to this post you actually think about your reply, i was a police officer so i know how these things work and what is expected and like i said in an earlier post i dont really care that the guy was killed. he had the option to stop, the police identified themselves and he took the option to run towards a tube train and in this current climate i dont really see any other outcome.

Because you are an ex-fed, does maybe mean you have a better working knowledge of the procedures etc; HOWEVER it does NOT make you any more aware than me of the circumstances in THIS case. YOU DO NOT KNOW FOR A FACT he was asked to stop etc; and are going on the same information that is available to all. Furthermore most of those remarks stink of sticking up for the 'family' anyway!!

you also go on to blame intelligence for labeling the guy a terrorist. at no point was he labeled a terrorist, he wasnt a target so intelligence was not wrong.

Well if he wasnt a suspect why did he take SEVEN to the head then?? If he wasnt a 'target' WHY was he followed??  Your reasoning is as follows: 

he was a guy who fitted a description that came out of premises that were being used by suspected terrorists

SO THE F.UCK WHAT!!!  In London you could probably watch ANY housing estate in the city, and be looking for ANY type of description, be it a White guy, Black guy, Hispanic guy, Arab guy etc; and be able to have someone who 'fits your description'.  FFS do you know how many times i have 'fitted the description' and been stopped by the boys in blue??  I am sorry but the 'he fitted the description' line is a very sad KOP OUT in my opinion. Just like the 'I thought it was a gun' when it is a piece of wood!! Line. So therefore the INTELLIGENCE was lacking.....You seem to forget this guy was innocent and was on he was way to WORK. You are speaking in terms of not caring he was killed, but i forget you are an ex-copper!!!

i wonder what you would have done in the polices situation. it seems you would have risked death and carnage.

It seems you have assumed (but thats a police trait isnt it?) again. in my post i said that ' I for one would not like to be one in the current climate, especially if having to get into stuations like that last week, when split second decisions have to be made!!! '
So I dont know what i would have done, and NOR DO YOU!! But thing is I would NEVER be in that situation to find out!!  What i do know however is that I would have done all I could to NOT have allowed this supposed suspect or person that 'fitted the description' (seen as you are an ex cop you'd probably prefer him refered to as that!!) to get on THAT BUS in the first place . And just to make an assumption of you (as you did me!) it seems as though YOU would have risked the lives of those on the bus before tackling thos guy, I am sorry, but i think i am in right here, before the bus was the BEST time to stop this guy, NOT in the hustle and bustle that are the bus stops outside Stockwell tube Station.

get the chip of your shoulder from whatever happend in the past. by your own admission you have done things that warrant police investigation and once you fall in that category you will never fall out of it.

Tut Tut, there you go ASSUMING again. TYPICAL PIGS eh??
I do not have a chip on my shoulder, as, as you say i made my own decisions and lived by them and was punished when was needed and i took it like a man. I have paid my dues and thats that. To be honest I dont even want to get into debate over the Police sevice and what a joke it is, because I could right a f.ucking book on it......ALL from personal experience. Lets just say when I needed the HELP of the Police and was in court, THEY didnt EVEN BOTHER to TURN UP and the case was dropped, roll on harrasment of my family and me having to leave home at seventeen to save my family grief, which would have been done had the police done a simple thing such as turn up for  a date they informed me about!!

But dont get me wrong that has no bearing on my views on this, i dont really allow mt personal feelings in such matters rule over my brain, I go on what seems to make sense (to me at least!).
As for you saying about 'once you are in that category, you always will' be etc;   Goes further to show your ignorant POLICE attitude, because I have just graduated at University with a Masters (2:1), so you are talking out of your a.rse mate!!  I have the best of both worlds to be honest, I have graduated from both the educational realms, but also the Street. So i KNOW about BOTH sides of the coin. I have streetsmarts and booksmarts...something I will bet my money on you having neither!!!

you also need to understand that you are dealing with hindsight

Actually my intial post that you qouted, not the one from tonight (yesterday evening actually   but you know what I mean) I made BEFORE it was confirmed that he wasnt the right person shot, so it was not hindsight initially...I had a feeling that something didnt seem right. Anyway i have the right to use hindsight, thats the way it is. The event has taken place and I wasnt there, how else do you want me to look at it. However, when talking about reasons why he may have run, that wasnt using hindsight, thats using possibilities!!!

can i ask that before you reply to this post you actually think about your reply

Who are you my teacher??
Look yea i dont need YOU to tell me what to do, what i need to say will come instantly as i read each point (as long as it is coherent and valid, which I admit yours are, though I disagree!).

please thing about this, the police do get things wrong

NO you must be lying,  I really thought they were perfect you know.....

what they did at the time was borne from a genuine belief that it was the right thing

This is the only thing i agree with you on. But thing YOU need to think about is that I said, it is not the officers involved fault, it was the commanding officers giving the surveillance team their orders, and those counter intelligence agents that 'believed' that block of flats was the target!
The officers in charge can only go by what their superiors tell them, and of course they wuld have no reason to feel the intelligence would be lacking, that would be like Steven Gerrard questioning rafa's tactical decisions etc;  There is a hierarchy, and the officers involved were at the bottom of that tree. But the buck, will STILL probably end with them!!

[112-1077774096]

i especially like the part where you blame others for your wrondoings, having to leave home etc.

i think we will have to agree to disagree on this point. i wouldnt expect someone who has been on the wrong side of the law to agree with the law, although you have gone through point by point you still seem to miss relevant points.

anyway im not going to continue arguing about this anymore, i have  had my say and like i said we will just continue to disagree.

nite nite sleep tight   

[112-1077774096]

As for you saying about 'once you are in that category, you always will' be etc;   Goes further to show your ignorant POLICE attitude, because I have just graduated at University with a Masters (2:1), so you are talking out of your a.rse mate!!  I have the best of both worlds to be honest, I have graduated from both the educational realms, but also the Street. So i KNOW about BOTH sides of the coin. I have streetsmarts and booksmarts...something I will bet my money on you having neither!!!

oooooooo ok, lets just take this point.
i was brought up in a broken home in tuebrook in liverpool;

a violent part of the city so i was street smart before i even joined the pigs (sic)

i was in the police in liverpool furthering my streetsmarts (sic) education

i also have a 2:1 in law and an MBA so i also have booksmarts (sic).







ooooooooo an ex pig with an education.

like i said earlier get the chip of your shoulder then i am sure you will have a better life. you did wrong, you were punished, end of story.

im happy that you have turend over a new leaf and are on the straight and narrow lessening the burden on the overworked police force and i hope it continues that way

congratulations

[JBG]

Obviously the whole thing is regrettable. I'm sure the officers involved haven't exactly taken this matter lightly. They are only human and their mistake last week will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

My own personal experience in dealing with police is that the vast majority of them are decent people who do an extremely difficult job. They are the thin blue line protecting us from anarchy and chaos. Obviously they are human and they are subject to the same failing and fallibilities as the rest of us.

Unfortunately it appears that last week happened to be a huge mistake. I'm sure that the officers involved did not take the decision to open fire lightly, although time will tell once the enquiry is held.

The whole thing is regretable, for man that was shot, his family but also for the officers involved as their actions will torment them for the rest of their lives.

[IstanBuL-FenerBaHce]

!..

Don't you know how he was killed?!..

Policemen watched him from his home, caught before he jumped into the metro cabin, lay him down, make him ineffective, then shoot him to kill!..

So, they detonate the bomb!!!!

Bullsht..

That London police did days ago is not only a big mistake, also a sign for big incapability.

Would you shoot 7 bullets to someone's head who you already catch and neutralize?..

This situation shows that police department can not make accurate decisions under pressure, and officials arent educated enough.


I hope such a situation wont be repeated again..

[MCYan]

Best wishes to all the victims and their families in UK.

[76-1115222408]

i especially like the part where you blame others for your wrondoings

Did nothing of the sort i said I had to leave home due to the inept police failing to turn up to court and help the prosecution of a local 'bully' and utter madman, who was jealous of my money and what i had made for myself etc; If they turned up he would have been convicted. As they didnt he was let out and was able to continue to not only harass me but MY FAMILY (which is not on!) so to save my FAMILY grief I moved out, TO THIS DAY, i still have problems with this guy and we have a fight about once a f.cking month FFS!!  So I didnt blame anyone for my 'wrongdoings'.....I said in my post I MADE MY DECISIONS and also TOOK whatever punishment was handed to me, be it attendence centre, fines, etc etc; So stop talking c.rap and trying to misqoute me!!!

although you have gone through point by point you still seem to miss relevant points.

Such as??? ??  Please show me what 'relevant' points that i missed and failed to address!!

like i said earlier get the chip of your shoulder then i am sure you will have a better life. you did wrong, you were punished, end of story.

Well my life is fine, have my own place in London, two cars, a good job with good money (that i enjoy too!!) and young son aged 2 and a beautiful wifey....who in te next year or so i expect to marry. If this is what i have whilst having a chip on my shoulder, then maybe i should get a second on the other shoulder too!!!   
Yes i did wrong (which i told you about, didnt have to!!) yes i was punished (again as i stated and accepted) and as i said it was the end of it....Stop repeating what i say FFS!! 

anyway im not going to continue arguing about this anymore,

Why not??  You have not countered my arguments and you are (supposedly) an ex-copper!!!  I was expecting a detailed analysis of why what i was saying was wrong......But oh yea, detailed analysis is not the Polices strongest suit is it??

Finally you said something to the effect of that because i have fell foul of the law in the past you wouldnt expect me to agre with the law....If that was the case how come i have not been arrested for over six years now then??  How come both of my parents (who have never ever had any dealing with the feds, be it here or scotland/egypt) HATE the police. How come so many people In London who have never been arrested have a serious disliking for the police??
I suppose i should have expected such a response from an ex-copper, the police service has a way of indoctrinating the minds of its staff and they have the ideaa that they are always right, but so often fail to give reasons for why that is so!!  Just as you displayed in your reply, you think I am wrong, but fail to exlain why!!!  Hmmmmmm 

Anyway good to see that there are (used to be actually, considering you no longer one) police with an education, because the majority take the job as they cant do anything else and you dont need any qulaifications to be an officer of the law.......Think about what i just said....YOU DO NOT NEED ANY QUALIFICATIONS TO UPHOLD THE LAW IN THIS COUNTRY....To be honest that is quite frightening!!! 

   

[Woollyback]

In terms of policing against the terrorist threat, those armed police did exactly the right thing in London last week by killing that Brazilian guy. Obviously it's very sad that an innocent man has died but the police have to make split-second judgement calls which could potentially save dozens of lives, or indeed COST dozens of lives if they take the easier decision and don't open fire. I've no idea why this chap ran from armed police but he obviously had his reasons and by all acounts spoke very good English and couldn't fail to be aware of the tension around London in the last 2 weeks, so why was he running?

The shoot-to-kill policy has to be upheld as it is the only way to effectively deal with the threat of a suicide bomber, the risk of an innocent person being killed is always there but if that is ever the case then their blood is well and truly on the grubby hands of the terrorists who are ENTIRELY to blame for the whole situation. The police have been doing an EXCELLENT job in London and, after all, those who are within the law and do not run from armed police officers have NOTHING TO FEAR from the law. I for one would feel much safer getting on the tube knowing that the police have the power to take instant and decisive action against these dispicable murderous zealots

[woof woof !]

Bottom line is . did the police give an audible warning ? If so , then in the present climate they (imo) are completely blameless. I'm mean who in their right mind would run away from cops (after being told to stop ) in a city that is undergoing a wave of suicide bombings ?

If however the guy wasn't challenged or didn't hear the challenge and was just legging it to catch the tube ,then serious questions about police procedure have to be asked .

[76-1115222408]

Bottom line is . did the police give an audible warning ?

Two good posts Wooly and Woof, agree with all you both say but the above qoute for me is the KEY to the investigation, and only time will tell what actually happened.....The only problem is (as the victim is dead) there will only be one real side to the story and that will be the POLICE'S version of events.
Ok there may be witnesses, but that didnt stop West Midlands police forcing people to 're-think' what they saw and eventually change it!  (In relation to the Hillsborough disaster!!!)     

[Ciggy]

Explotion in Istanbuls central square 

[neilE]

An innocent man is dead - its not a capital offence to leap frog a tube barrier. It should not have happened. Nor should any of the thousands that have been in the wrong place at the wrong time in the last year or two, in Iraq, London, New York, Madrid, Bali etc etc. It's just another wasted life in the unrelenting series - a devastating indictment of the world we've built. I wouldn't blame the copper who pulled the trigger, he's just as much caught up in it as anyone. The world is not a happy place these days, and I can't see anyone doing much to make it better.
One thing in particular scares me shtless about this incident. OK the police now shoot terrorists in the head to stop them setting off their bombs. Fair enough, except they can't guarantee to get it right (in fact a 100% failure rate!) So, from now on as soon as they decide a suspect is a terrorist, they have to shoot him dead before he has time to do or say anything. This Brazilian was a terrorist suspect, so even if the guy had stopped, in that crowded street, the police would have had to shoot him dead, in case he set off a bomb. Who's going to be next? could be absolutely anyone!

[76-1115222408]

This Brazilian was a terrorist suspect, so even if the guy had stopped, in that crowded street, the police would have had to shoot him dead, in case he set off a bomb. Who's going to be next? could be absolutely anyone!

Excellent post neilE....The above is EXACTLY what I am so worried about too!!!