Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Well I missed whatever happened to make Lando edit his posts, but I must confess I found myself nodding at much of the thrust of his points (although naturally his phraseology differs to mine). To me, once we start getting involved in discussing the finer points of religion itself I feel the focus of what the discussion is about gets lost.

Ultimately, when people decide for whatever reason to come to the UK or indeed if they are born in the UK, they must surely agree to buy into a certain way of life, a certain set of common rules which are broadly covered within the laws of the land. If they can't or won't do that, or indeed if white Anglo Saxon people can't or won't do that, then they ought to feel the full wieght of the law kicking them up the jacksy. This is why I metioned the Tarquins earlier who come out once a year on anti capitalism demonstrations. Of course they have the right to protest and make their point, but they don't have the right to desecrate monuments and generally behave in the way they do. I have no more time for them than I do Mad Mullahs.

On the subject of militant Islamists though, for my money it is totally unacceptable to burn the flag in the street, to pick up a loud haler and avocate the killing of British soldiers who are fighting in a foreign land. It is treason as far as I am concerned to go to Afghanistan and join up to fight against your fellow countrymen, and I say this as somebody who is by no means convinced of the validity of the soldiers "mission". If you are a citizen of the UK and you choose to live your life within its borders, you should at the very least respect the families of those who are overseas risking their lives in the British armed forces. To do otherwise is despicable IMHO. Campaign against the deployment by all means, but to advocate the killing of British nationals is a disgrace, and that applies whatever colour or creed the people are who are doing it. 

Like I said earlier, by failing to take into accounbt the views of indegenous people the ruling classes will drive votes and support into the heinious arms of people like the National Front. The best way to avoid that is to listen, not to skinhead nutters who are spoiling for a row, but to the many sensible people who think there is currently a problem. Britain is a very tolerant country, I cannot think of many others where groups of young men living within the midst of the populace can plot to kill and maim thousands of people without provoking a violent backlash aginst their creed, but that it hasn't happened is a credit to the UK.

The tolerance won't go on forever though. People have to learn to live together, religious and non religious, black and white. The state can help in this though, ensuring through rigorous application of the laws of the land that different groups within society show respect to each other, and not burning flags and the like would be a start. Tolerance won't last forever unless the issues get addressed.

[Sabre]

Oh, and just to make it clear, I posted no racist/homophobic/xenophobic slanderous commets - I am just deleting my own views on religion as I don't want to upset anyone who adheres to those faiths.

Before anyone decides to try and get me banned for something they think I might do.

I certainly wasn't offended and I find a bit surprising the excessive importance of the choice of words. When I read some people, sometimes it seems more important to choose the correct words to call something than combat the racism or the homophoby.

Certainly I wouldn't be offended if you had a similar go at the catholics.

However, I disagree your views. It's not a problem of religions mate, I'm Catholic, but I haven nothing to do with other Catholics. But I'm pretty sure that if I went to England my Catholicness wouldn't have anything to do with how I'm treated there. It's a matter of convivence, and a matter of respecting the English law.

Quite simply if you respect the law, you can have whatever creed uou want. The problem is not that the ones who incite violence are muslims, the problem is that they break the law. Similarly tomorrow you can have some ex guerrilla guys of Albania or Croatia causing trouble in the banks of your neighbourhood. The problem won't be their religion, nor their nation but them breaking the law. And similarly you could have BNP guys causing trouble, the problem is not that they want to defend England, the problem is if they break the law and for instance they beat a foreigner in the street.

Respect the law. And deal with the people who break it. I'm left winged (unlike you) and I think inmigration is good for my country. I like English men enjoying their last days here. I appreciate that workers from other places come here to do the jobs. But inmigration has to be done with order. And law must be respected. I welcome anyone, as long as he respect the spanish law. I disagree the focus you gave to this debate, but I certainly wasn't offended by your language -- it has been the same one in 2004 and now, if it wasn't funny then it wasn't funny now.

[NANNY RED]

I could even find it in my heart to like a Man Utd fan...

off Lando now your going to far

[babu]

I don't really want to get into this debate..

but I wanted to mention this video I came across. I work in the Halal industry and Islamic Services including Banking.

I came across this u-tube video, its produced by Christians and it is basically a call to halt the Islamicisation of the World. However, in my opinion it does the opposite. It supports the point of view it is inevitable. I have used elements of this video to convince many companies, MNCs and a few governments to start investing in the Halal industry.

Check it out:
You Tube Video

[Sabre]

That video is not Christian. It's fascist using religion pretext. Disgusting.

[Big Niall]

Ramadhan is not just about hunger or trying to grasp the feelings of the poor its more than that. Its a way of connecting with god spiritually. You fast yes to avoid food and drink but also you fast so you could stop commiting sins and become more god conscious. Its a time when one reflects on his life and ponders on his existence and servitude to god. In this month many holy scriptures were sent out to mankind and many other prophetic incidents occured.
The belief in the holy books is that the devil is shackled in this month so one has the time to ignore ill thoughts and try to implement a better life. With this one month reflection on ones life after ramadhan many people change their ways and become better individuals. So its more than being hungry!

About praying 5 times a day... Not a waste of time... Takes only a few mins and is a powerful connection with god... Also majority participate in charity work so i guess its double rewards..

BTW i've just touched the surface on islamic knowledge so just learning atm.. I'm muslim btw.. Mix race and have become more interested in it!

If it leads you to be a better person , fair enough.

But do you really believe there is a devil and he is shackled for a month?

That is clearly nonsense.

[bunglemark2]

But do you really believe there is a devil and he is shackled for a month?

Mate, and the females on this forum are gonne HATE me for saying it, but some might say the She-Devil is un-shackled for a few days EVERY month...

[account deleted by request]

I don't really want to get into this debate..

but I wanted to mention this video I came across. I work in the Halal industry and Islamic Services including Banking.

I came across this u-tube video, its produced by Christians and it is basically a call to halt the Islamicisation of the World. However, in my opinion it does the opposite. It supports the point of view it is inevitable. I have used elements of this video to convince many companies, MNCs and a few governments to start investing in the Halal industry.

Check it out:
You Tube Video

Its people like Dawson that are causing the problem Babu, you can't expect me to father the next generation all on my own.

Seriously there is definately a problem in the West over birth rates. A lot of my friends said years ago that they had decided not to have any children, and most of them haven't. I think a lot choose freedom, holidays and possessions rather than have a family.

[metalhead]

As for Ramadan - why should you have to do that? Why should you fast? It's another case of causing people to suffer in the name of religion. Yes, they feel good once completed, but what about the fat kid who can't resist a Penguin bar during Morning break? How's he going to feel?

I'm not saying that it isn't for a good cause. I'm not saying I can't see the virtue in it.

What I am saying is I don't think it's right, and I don't want it ramming down my throat at every God-given opportunity.

Who's ramming it down your throat at every opportunity?

You mightn't think it's normal, mate, but surely you can accept that people hold radically different interpretations of the world to your own? And, if those practices aren't interfering with your own life (how could they?), then surely you shouldn't have a problem?

Like I said, I have no problem with any race/religion provided they don't try to change my life to fit in with theirs.

By the same token, I have my own views on each religion and I misguidedly thought that this was a reasonable place to air them. It obviously isn't, and all that this discussion will result in is my offending someone without meaning to.

I don't mind offending people by calling them a "c*nt".

I won't offend someone for the sake of it, though.

Again - as far as I am concerned, everyone can do whatever they like, provided it doesn't interfere unduly with me and mine.

And I am truly sorry if my views on religion and immigration have offended anyone. I just find it difficult to rationalise many of the practices and new laws - I accept that this is my own problem and I shouldn't disparage such things simply because of it. I do not have a problem with any of the nations of Europe and would happily visit each and every one of them as I believe they are all so different to Britain and would offer new, individual experiences.

I could even find it in my heart to like a Man Utd fan...

I'm just pointing out what your saying wrong, or how your views are misinterpreted. I don't think many muslims would want you to become a muslim because they are trying to make an islam world, many don't give a f*ck what your religion is or your beliefs. Now extremists are different kind of story, they are nut jobs who thinks that an Islam world will be a better world, free from the fake gods (alcohol, sex and money), but thats not the case. Now if you get into a discussion with an extremist, I suggest you just tell him ''your right and i'm wrong, now f*ck off'' and that will be that

You can do whatever you like lando, no one is going to stop you, and besides god's greatest gift to mankind is Free Will!

[metalhead]

Seriously there is definately a problem in the West over birth rates. A lot of my friends said years ago that they had decided not to have any children, and most of them haven't. I think a lot choose freedom, holidays and possessions rather than have a family.

any of your daughters care to start a family....





































I'm kidding mate

[Kharhaz]

I am not asking anyone to agree with what I have said here, this is an opinion. But I ask you please to respect my opinion without burdening me with you're very own egocentric view.

That statement dismisses itself. Does it not?

Kharhaz, I only asked to have my opinion respected. However with ideologies in Western society being as they are today, you must either conform to the egocentric view of left wing notions. If not you are lambasted as a facist racist.

The British public have had to swallow the political view of left wing notions for far too long now, to the point where it has become silly to say the least. Protestors who used their democratic right against the opening of a mosque which without compassion and diplomacy opended on the annivesrsary of 9/11. Where labelled as racists' this card has been used far too much now and people I suspect are becoming sick and tired of having to tread on eggshells where ethnic minorities are concerned.

Check OECD reports on birth rates also in western countries, I think this is why SIOS protest in fear of becoming an ethnic minority in Britain.

As for 'trying to construct a proper argument' that all seems a bit rich coming from the ignorance of someone who couldn't be ar.sed to get all the their facts straight about the protesters and the timing of the mosque being opened.
Indeed it is tiresome.
----------------------------------
posted on behalf of a mate

I wasnt having a go fella, I was just pointing out that most views, I think, are "egocentric". When you post on here they are either the facts or your own opinion. No opinion is truly respected. Its acknowledged and either agreed with or not and replied to. Thats the reason we all put our views across, we like a reply to it, sensible or not. Thats our ego playing up. Most people dont reply to my views though, and ive realised thats probably the best approach ! 

PS: Saint I know it wasnt your view mate, but I couldnt reply directly to the fella who wrote it !

[account deleted by request]

I am not asking anyone to agree with what I have said here, this is an opinion. But I ask you please to respect my opinion without burdening me with you're very own egocentric view.

That statement dismisses itself. Does it not?

Kharhaz, I only asked to have my opinion respected. However with ideologies in Western society being as they are today, you must either conform to the egocentric view of left wing notions. If not you are lambasted as a facist racist.

The British public have had to swallow the political view of left wing notions for far too long now, to the point where it has become silly to say the least. Protestors who used their democratic right against the opening of a mosque which without compassion and diplomacy opended on the annivesrsary of 9/11. Where labelled as racists' this card has been used far too much now and people I suspect are becoming sick and tired of having to tread on eggshells where ethnic minorities are concerned.

Check OECD reports on birth rates also in western countries, I think this is why SIOS protest in fear of becoming an ethnic minority in Britain.

As for 'trying to construct a proper argument' that all seems a bit rich coming from the ignorance of someone who couldn't be ar.sed to get all the their facts straight about the protesters and the timing of the mosque being opened.
Indeed it is tiresome.
----------------------------------
posted on behalf of a mate

I wasnt having a go fella, I was just pointing out that most views, I think, are "egocentric". When you post on here they are either the facts or your own opinion. No opinion is truly respected. Its acknowledged and either agreed with or not and replied to. Thats the reason we all put our views across, we like a reply to it, sensible or not. Thats our ego playing up. Most people dont reply to my views though, and ive realised thats probably the best approach ! 

PS: Saint I know it wasnt your view mate, but I couldnt reply directly to the fella who wrote it !

Hi Kharhaz, I am using the term 'egocentric' in principle that one expects the world to view its opinons through the eyes of oneself.

Quite simply my point was proven with one other chap on these boards. If I don't adopt his 'egocentric ways', I'm a then labelled as a supporter of the BNP   Its pretty black and white for some people, who tend to leave out the very important grey matter in such discussions.

Quite simply for some perspective taking is not a forte. 

Posted on behalf of a mate

[LFC2007]

No substance, as per usual

[Lando_Griffin]

Well I missed whatever happened to make Lando edit his posts, but I must confess I found myself nodding at much of the thrust of his points (although naturally his phraseology differs to mine). To me, once we start getting involved in discussing the finer points of religion itself I feel the focus of what the discussion is about gets lost.

Ultimately, when people decide for whatever reason to come to the UK or indeed if they are born in the UK, they must surely agree to buy into a certain way of life, a certain set of common rules which are broadly covered within the laws of the land. If they can't or won't do that, or indeed if white Anglo Saxon people can't or won't do that, then they ought to feel the full wieght of the law kicking them up the jacksy. This is why I metioned the Tarquins earlier who come out once a year on anti capitalism demonstrations. Of course they have the right to protest and make their point, but they don't have the right to desecrate monuments and generally behave in the way they do. I have no more time for them than I do Mad Mullahs.

On the subject of militant Islamists though, for my money it is totally unacceptable to burn the flag in the street, to pick up a loud haler and avocate the killing of British soldiers who are fighting in a foreign land. It is treason as far as I am concerned to go to Afghanistan and join up to fight against your fellow countrymen, and I say this as somebody who is by no means convinced of the validity of the soldiers "mission". If you are a citizen of the UK and you choose to live your life within its borders, you should at the very least respect the families of those who are overseas risking their lives in the British armed forces. To do otherwise is despicable IMHO. Campaign against the deployment by all means, but to advocate the killing of British nationals is a disgrace, and that applies whatever colour or creed the people are who are doing it. 

Like I said earlier, by failing to take into accounbt the views of indegenous people the ruling classes will drive votes and support into the heinious arms of people like the National Front. The best way to avoid that is to listen, not to skinhead nutters who are spoiling for a row, but to the many sensible people who think there is currently a problem. Britain is a very tolerant country, I cannot think of many others where groups of young men living within the midst of the populace can plot to kill and maim thousands of people without provoking a violent backlash aginst their creed, but that it hasn't happened is a credit to the UK.

The tolerance won't go on forever though. People have to learn to live together, religious and non religious, black and white. The state can help in this though, ensuring through rigorous application of the laws of the land that different groups within society show respect to each other, and not burning flags and the like would be a start. Tolerance won't last forever unless the issues get addressed.

100% correct.

[Lando_Griffin]

Oh, and just to make it clear, I posted no racist/homophobic/xenophobic slanderous commets - I am just deleting my own views on religion as I don't want to upset anyone who adheres to those faiths.

Before anyone decides to try and get me banned for something they think I might do.

I certainly wasn't offended and I find a bit surprising the excessive importance of the choice of words. When I read some people, sometimes it seems more important to choose the correct words to call something than combat the racism or the homophoby.

Certainly I wouldn't be offended if you had a similar go at the catholics.

However, I disagree your views. It's not a problem of religions mate, I'm Catholic, but I haven nothing to do with other Catholics. But I'm pretty sure that if I went to England my Catholicness wouldn't have anything to do with how I'm treated there. It's a matter of convivence, and a matter of respecting the English law.

Quite simply if you respect the law, you can have whatever creed uou want. The problem is not that the ones who incite violence are muslims, the problem is that they break the law. Similarly tomorrow you can have some ex guerrilla guys of Albania or Croatia causing trouble in the banks of your neighbourhood. The problem won't be their religion, nor their nation but them breaking the law. And similarly you could have BNP guys causing trouble, the problem is not that they want to defend England, the problem is if they break the law and for instance they beat a foreigner in the street.

Respect the law. And deal with the people who break it. I'm left winged (unlike you) and I think inmigration is good for my country. I like English men enjoying their last days here. I appreciate that workers from other places come here to do the jobs. But inmigration has to be done with order. And law must be respected. I welcome anyone, as long as he respect the spanish law. I disagree the focus you gave to this debate, but I certainly wasn't offended by your language -- it has been the same one in 2004 and now, if it wasn't funny then it wasn't funny now.

Mate - some of the nicest people I have met are foreign. I welcome everyone who respects the British way with open arms - it's the people who don't that get my goat.

I think we agree on more than you realise.