Liverpool FC Forum

[coddy]

we where one of the best club teams in the world in the mid to late 80's.

oh and you won European cups then too? ??

any ways as your were saying about stats dont tell the whole story.......... 3-0 wasnt really a true reflection on the game either.

Oh, how was the street parade?    

[82-1074641017]

oh i accept it.. the thing i love is the way most of you red's get in a mood then go straight on the defensive after one defeat  

the facts don't always tell the whole story.. like hmm that '0' next to european cups may have been a completely different story where it not for the antics of your fans. we where one of the best club teams in the world in the mid to late 80's.

Come on thats not our fault you never won the European Cup, anyone could use that excuse.

[jonnymac1979]

the facts don't always tell the whole story.. like hmm that '0' next to european cups may have been a completely different story where it not for the antics of your fans. we where one of the best club teams in the world in the mid to late 80's.

Taken from They Call Us Murderers You Know blog

What this article sets out to do is put straight some of the long established and twisted myths that Liverpool are to be held responsible for all of Everton’s problems post Heysel and break the circle of idiocy that is passed from one generation to the next maybe allowing some of the next generation to have a peaceful sleep without muttering "murdering Red bastards"

Most of the bitters won't read it, the rest will deny its contents are true, but none the less these are the facts of the case.

The arguments will fall into four categories.

(1) Everton hold no blame for the ban of 1985
(2) Everton would have won the European Cup in 1985
(3) Everton's demise is linked exclusively to the ban of 1985
(4) Everton was the club most affected by the ban. Of 1985

Everton hold no blame for the ban of 1985

Everton where far removed from being innocents as David Moyes and a host of Everton luminaries would have the uninformed believe Like many of the major clubs in the 70s and 80s Everton fans where knee deep in the violence that was Football Hooliganism.

Everton's crew may not have been at Heysel in 1985 but their behaviour before the European Cup Final of 1985 was counted alongside the rest of the mayhem that was English football around that time. UEFA where keeping a close watch on the English crowds both home and abroad. Everton have had an unhealthy reputation for organised violence going back to the 60s in fact while most of the Hoolie clubs have given it up Everton carry on the tradition to the present day.

The reason for the ban of was not just about Heysel, not surprisingly the deaths of 39 people became the final straw for the authorities. It was such a catastrophe it became impossible to ignore or brush under the carpet as they had chosen to do since the early 70s. Even if they didn’t want to act their hands where forced to do so by the law and order politicians from the major countries of Europe, Margaret (The Iron Lady) Thatcher being in the forefront. Since the 70s they might have seen some political return on allowing the youth to run wild instead of being disciplined in fighting their poverty or lack of jobs but eventually the pressure to act was too strong, the population had had enough of their town and city squares being turned into battle fields, they demanded action, and even though the politicians themselves had shown very little compulsion to quell the problem they dragged the poor souls of the English FA before them demanding that they act..

Ted Crocker was the FA Secretary and a member of the UEFA disciplinary commission that had to deal with fans behaviour in all competitions in all European games. He stated shortly after UEFA’s decision to ban all English teams from Europe.

“As a member of UEFA’s disciplinary commission I knew we had been on a knife edge for quite a while and that any serious incident could cause the English clubs to be banned. It was apparent even without the terrible aftermath which saw so many people killed that the trouble in Brussels would have brought about a ban."

Crocker was in the thick of it so he should know. Any disturbance either in the 1985 final or after it from any English fans including those who followed the national team would have brought out a ban on that Crocker is certain.

After Heysel The FA tried to stem off a major ban from UEFA and FIFA by pulling out all English Clubs.

On the 31st May John Smith the Liverpool Chairman announced Liverpool were voluntary pulling out of the 85-86 UEFA Cup.

"It will mean a terrific loss of revenue but this is secondary to the reputation of my country" We have nearly 21 years of unblemished record as good as any club in any country"

Mr Smith went on to say that ….

"..it was a possibility that UEFA may expel all English clubs if Liverpool had not acted in this way. Liverpool are taking this lead voluntarily."

As Mr Smith was addressing the press leaders of the FA were standing on the steps of 10 Downing Street. Alongside chairman Bert Millichip, secretary Ted Crocker told the press that the FA were pulling all English clubs out of all European competitions for the following season.

"It is now up to English football to put its house in order," he said.  Bert Millichip the FA Chairman added ”It was very important that the FA took positive action and immediately,"

This has been criticised by many as a knee jerk reaction, The leaders of the Football league were quick to distance themselves from a decision take without consulting them, they accused the FA leaders of acting too quickly during an emotional atmosphere, they said the decision to pull out of Europe was " astonishing" But given that Croker was in the know at UEFA it was hoped he could stem the tide. Thatcher of course was doing what politicians do best saving themselves. Her law and order government had been under pressure for some time to do something about hooliganism. She had threatened the FA that if they didn’t jump to it she would push the ban through herself.

The Liverpool Echo had laid into Thatcher's government in its editorial of May 30th they accused the Iron Lady of a desire for a quick headline rather than a quick solution to the problem. She has promised direct action after the riot between Millwall and Luton fans in March of that year. She had shown leadership in taking control of the situation calling ministers and football officials to number 10 for a show down. Nothing came of it and the failure of the government to even liaise with Liverpool over its reservations as to the choice of the 1985 final and the problems with segregation showed they weren't that bothered until the shit hit the fan. The Echo and its sister paper The Daily Post were the only daily's to report the true horrors of the 1984 European cup final between AS Roma and Liverpool in the city of Rome. They had led a campaign to get the government to act but it fell on deaf ears. It is true to say that the Italian press were more vociferous over the violence that night than any of the national English press. Writing shortly after the imposed ban by UEFA the editorial in the Liverpool Echo on June 3rd 1985 expressed a reasoned view saying

“ It is rough justice even for Liverpool because it is a decision taken on the behaviour of all English supporters over the last 15 years and not just on that one tragic night”

Howard Kendall was more open minded than he is today he told the Echo,

"I cannot stand up and say the clubs are guilty. The clubs are not guilty. Everybody is suffering because of a minority, and the answer was to deal with the minority."

Mossley Hill Liberal MP David Alton claimed Heysel to be a double tragedy, "it was also a tragedy for Liverpool Football Club, who have always been regarded as the giants of football not least because of the conduct of their fans."

Later on words of comfort and conciliation from Liverpool’s neighbours where airbrushed out of Evertons history to be replaced with the language of the accuser. As their failure to deal with a changing game and allowing pigmies to run their club took a disastrous toll they looked around for a scapegoat. A turnaround that would have been admired by Joseph Stalin took place. Those that they wanted to comfort back in 85 where now seen as the villains and perpetrators of their fall from power. But even the most blinkered and bitter has to understand that if Liverpool where the sole reason for the ban why were they separated from the rest and given an extra three years. Wasn't the UEFA verdict saying you all stand in the dock, and are all guilty but Liverpool's crime is worse than the rest. And why did the English club authorities not take up a real fight against the national ban. If they felt so aggrieved and victimised why not fight the "injustice" of it all? Liverpool it was well known were prepared for a ban, anything from five years to an indefinite banishment had been feared. Pulling out of the 85-86 UEFA Cup was not only an admission of guilt but an attempt to stave off a blanket ban. To the European and World Footballing leaders this was a marvellous get out opportunity for them. They had watched South American fans run riot, shoot referees and burn stadiums down and done nothing, in Europe UEFA had stood by and compiled dossiers while the Italian Ultras, or the Dutch and German fans exercised their own form of the "English Disease."

The 1984 Roma v Liverpool final should have been a start to clean up the Italian game the Italian Press to their credit demanded action after Rome in 1984 but nobody cared enough. So why didn't the cowards at FIFA and UEFA take up the get out Liverpool had put before them. Could it have been that Heysel WAS the final straw even for these dunderheads and it wasn't about the single issue of a solitary set of fans gone wild. Is it so hard for Evertonian's to work that out for themselves?

Probably it is, we have to continue. We have to look at Everton fans record during the 80s.

The Bradford City fire tragedy of May 11th 1985 kept another football related death off the front pages. On the same day as the fire a 15 year old boy was crushed to death at Birmingham City’s ground when a wall collapsed during a riot between Birmingham City and Leeds fans. As well as the dead teenager a total of 75 people where injured and more that 50 arrests where made by the police.

Although the death of a young boy was not customary on every match day in every town and city, minor riots and full scale battles took place before and after games at most. Hooligans where not just the “privilege” of first division clubs either. Hooliganism stretched across all the divisions, localities and class barriers. Young junior stockbrokers charged the high streets alongside the unemployed and the poorly paid youth on YTS schemes.

Most of the major clubs had what was called a Firm. Some of the worse where Luton’s Migs, Millwall’s Bushwackers, West Hams Inter-City Firm and Newcastle’s Gremlins, Chelsea - head Hunters

Liverpool didn’t boast a firm as such in fact it was counted as being naff to be in one as one of the first Reds fan mags proclaimed. They had some scallies in the Anfield Road end calling themselves The Anny Road Crew, it was not a mob as such. Being made up of small groups of lads who " worked " together. To the rest of us Reds they where just The Urchins. These street wise kids mostly from Scotty, Kirkby, Speke and Huyton had more of an eye to robbery than violence and where responsible for some outlandish raids on jewellers shops under the smoke screen of a hooligan fight. The Thomas Crown affair is a bit too far fetched if you had ever witnessed these kids at their chosen occupation. Like the Reds under Shanks and Uncle Bob the secret of their success was all about simplicity. Their journeys into the posh cities of Europe had also given them the taste for decent “clobber” and they returned home with holdalls packed with the gear to either sell or give out to their mates. To other clubs fans who hadn't done a "Dustin" to Europe they got a buzz from the rumble of a street fight, that was their way of a release. For the Anny Road lads the buzz was organising and carrying out the heist of expensive clobber and in doing so releasing themselves from the poverty of the dole. You could always tell when Liverpool where in town. The away end was littered with young kids wearing the best shirts, strides and trainers, but still looking like scallywags. That is not to glorify them, if the shops didn't cough up then the fans had to. Anyone who had his arss pocket sliced open carefully with a craft knife and the wallet or folded money delicately taken out would gladly have rung their scrawny tide marked necks, they didn't discriminate either Red or not if you looked tasty you got done, it was part of the basics of Thatcherite economics.

Everton on the other hand did have organised fighting firms the two most prominent calling themselves The County Road Cutters and Kelly’s Heroes. The CRC could pass off as a major force in British Hooli circles. They may have had some decent clobber they had bought off Reds, but in the main they wore the uniform of the violent hooligan.

Although a lot of the recent reports from the so called leaders of Hooli Firms can be taken with a pinch of salt. Andy Nichols in his book Scally catalogues a reign of terror by Evertonian's and the County Road Cutters in particular. From slashing the young black boxing hopeful Jobe Henry giving him cuts to his back and upper arms that needed over 200 stitches and finished him off as a boxer, to organising the charge against Southampton at the semi-final of the FA Cup in 1984. If the walls around Highbury had not been robust enough who knows there might have been a major fatality a year before Heysel. At that game over 100 were arrested and 70 taken to hospital, it represented one of the blackest days of the FA Cup. Nichols talks big but he backs his claims up with photos, press cuttings and clips from accredited sources. Anyone can check the validity of these events by going to any public library. There were many major battles between Everton and rival fans too many to mention here, I have listed the ones I researched picking out those that stood out from the run of the mill " we legged this lot on this day" that you can find in any of the Hoollie books like Scally, , don't buy it don't give the sod a penny towards his rotten life, it is in the library if you have to read it.

In Scally he says he was at Heysel acting as a tout but he never got involved in the fighting, must have been a rare day off eh? He slips up later by accusing touts of selling tickets to the ill fated X enclosure where the death occurred. He doesn't say if he sold any for that part of the ground.

In that ill fated 1985 season Everton went on to win the European Cup Winners Cup they proudly boast that they behaved exemplary at the final, but what is interesting and hardly gets a mention from The Blues is that in the early round away to Fortuna Sittard Everton officials refused to sell tickets to their fans for the away leg fearing trouble from them. Why if the Evertonian's where whiter than white during that campaign should their club take the unprecedented action of banning them from an away leg? Maybe the away leg to lowly amateurs University College Dublin on the 19th September 1984 gives us a clue. Going over to the game on the B& I ferry M.V.Conacht the Blues trashed the bars and lounges and bust open the locked down duty free stores, the estimated damage minus the loss of the spirits was marked down as over £5,000, a lot in those days. The captain was a bit wary bringing the same crowd back and after some fighting amongst themselves on the quayside, he called it a night and sailed off leaving a bundle of 60 Bluenoses stranded. Having been drunk all day in Dublin and looking for more liquor those Blues on board the ferry hit the bars once again. After drinking the looted wares an angry mob demanded the boat turn around and pick up their mislaid comrades. The boat did turn around but not on a mercy trip for the lost Blues but to bring on board a small army of the Guardia to protect the innocent passengers and crew who where being terrorised by the drunken mob. The Evertonian's that where left behind where taken on board by the Irish Police, they did not want them marauding around the streets of Dublin all night. On arrival at Liverpool docks the local police took control arrests where made and it was a sorry bunch that walked down the dock road for home that morning. The game was a shambles Everton nicking it 1-0 the self proclaimed future European Champions had had an almighty fright at the hands of a group of part timers.

There was also the little known piece of news that was pushed to a corner of the sports page the day Heysel hit the headlines.. Everton where fined £1000 by UEFA for the action of their fans who bombarded the Bayern Munich bench with bottles and other missiles during the 1985 Cup Winners Cup semi-final second leg at Goodison Park. The game itself was filled with incident, the Echo's Football writer Ken Rogers Described the scene when he wrote,

Everton gave one of the greatest club sides in Europe a one goal lead last night and then battered them into submission.
The German teams coach Latteck was disgusted with the fouls being commited against his team and was heard shouting a protest to Kendall "Kendall this is not football",
the Everton bench's reply mirrored their teams unruly tactics on the pitch "We leapt to our feet and as a man shouted back in unison Fuck Off!!" ( Z Stars p97)

So even during a rare European crusade in which they like to tell the world they had a trouble free campaign right up to the final, the self proclaimed victims of Heysel had blotted their copy book more than once that season in Europe, and had contributed to the later UEFA action if as Ted Croker said later UEFA were watching and taking notes on crowd behaviour at all the English clubs games with an eye to a ban. Everton had more than contributed to the later judgment, and missing the chance of being a force in Europe.

After Heysel and especially after Hillsborough and the Taylor Report the majority of the Hooligans faded into the swamp …well most of then did ……..There was still a mad bad crowd that followed the national team, but the last known serious trouble involving any English clubs fans in Europe was the white knights of Everton oddly enough against Belgian fans after a " friendly" on 6th August 2002. 500 Blues "kitted up" travelled to the game against Anderlecht the game was played in Brussels of all places, the scene where they had claimed for more than 17 years Liverpool stopped them becoming a great club. Given the history you would think they would be ambassadors for the city of Liverpool but no they turned the streets of Brussels into a battlefield The violence was that bad the police had to resort to water cannon and tear gas to break up rioting that lasted for almost 6 hours. Liverpool had played in Europe for 21 years prior to Heysel without serious trouble and now 11 years after coming back from the brink they again went to European cities without trouble yet the hypocrites that point their fingers at Reds and call them murderers demonstrated who holds the championship of shame in Liverpool.

Oh! and just one more thing for any bitters reading this, it wasn't 39 Italians that died ay Heysel get it right, and after you re paint those tat banners you lot show off at Derby games, if you see Howard Kendall inform him that it wasn't just Italians who died at Heysel. As recent as 2004 he still thinks it was.

""No one would want to underplay what happened when Italian fans were killed after that wall collapsed before the 1985 European Cup Final between Liverpool and Juventus. It was a real tragedy, but the subsequent UEFA ban was particularly severe because it punished clubs who were not involved. We were in the front line at Everton as the new Champions. The rewards for teams in Europe, especially for the Champions, can be tremendous. It enables players and managers to test themselves at the next level. It often enables managers to bring in further star quality based on those financial rewards and the simple fact that you are playing in Europe. For fans, it takes them to exciting new places and brings world-class opposition into the picture."" (ZStars Ken Rogers with Howard Kendall. P219-220 Published 2004)

Recent times have seen the successors to the CRC involved in the Battle at Everton Valley with United fans, it was part of the transfer deal for Rooney some cynics say. Derby days have lost their fun for some but lets face it going to Goodison Park was never a pleasant experience was it. Last seasons experience following the Anfield defeat for them witnessed a bust up with the police. Blues where spotted throwing bottles and glasses at passing vehicle outside the Blue House. A minor riot went off and two police horses where slashed by broken glasses. The police had no bother in identifying Everton fans as the culprits.

They will of course point the finger at Reds and say what about the rocking of Smiths ambulance at Anfield or the riot at Milwall, sorry blues but this isn’t a tit for tat piece it is about Everton’s hooliganism and the lie that you where banned through no fault of your own. Past and present incidents show that there have always been Evertonian's who have this gut feeling to be in your face, act as nasty as possible, and willing to have a go at the drop of a hat. Some old hands like Andy Nicholls praise the new breed of hooligans sprouting up at Goodison. He has this philosophy that it is the natural thing for a young lad to want to slash the nose off another young lad, and the only way the authorities can stop it is to cut off the arms and legs of every male at birth.

Still a nice bloke Mr Nichols eh?

[AdamB]

Alright Lads, Bluenose here, dont worry i come in peace.
Come an proove us bitters wrong then, us off bluekipper would like to challenge you guys to a game of footy on preferably the 7th October when the internationals are on.

Played a few other boards and its always a good laugh.
Look forwad to hearing back from you's.

[adamnbarrett]

Alright Lads, Bluenose here, dont worry i come in peace.
Come an proove us bitters wrong then, us off bluekipper would like to challenge you guys to a game of footy on preferably the 7th October when the internationals are on.

Played a few other boards and its always a good laugh.
Look forwad to hearing back from you's.

you played thisisanfield didn't you?

who won? 

[AdamB]

Alright Lads, Bluenose here, dont worry i come in peace.
Come an proove us bitters wrong then, us off bluekipper would like to challenge you guys to a game of footy on preferably the 7th October when the internationals are on.

Played a few other boards and its always a good laugh.
Look forwad to hearing back from you's.

you played thisisanfield didn't you?

who won? 

That was another Everton forum, they won 7-3 but a few of the lads from our forum played.
So any takers?

[Rafa D]

Alright Lads, Bluenose here, dont worry i come in peace.
Come an proove us bitters wrong then, us off bluekipper would like to challenge you guys to a game of footy on preferably the 7th October when the internationals are on.

Played a few other boards and its always a good laugh.
Look forwad to hearing back from you's.

you played thisisanfield didn't you?

who won? 

That was another Everton forum, they won 7-3 but a few of the lads from our forum played.
So any takers?

Im deffo game.

[Dom1]

i'll play.. ooh what drama

[adamnbarrett]

i'll play.. ooh what drama

Drama queen 

[Dom1]

cheers like

[AdamB]

I'll report back in a few days and see if you's can get a team together

[Ciggy]

Can I play 

[Rafa D]

Can I play 

I can see it now, with Motty commentating

Dodd plays it square to Dom, Leon jumps two footed at Doms face, wins the ball from his own player and plays a long ball to cggy.

  Cggy takes in down beatifully, but she got two bitters in front of her, she's kicked the ball a good 15 yards in front of her, What she... oh my god, trev!  Cggy has just lifted up her top to reveal her prized assets, and the bitters are dumbfounded, she runs through, the defenders are lying on the ground obviously trying to hide instant wood, she dribbles round the keeper, and scoressss!!!!

its 16 -0 to newkit

Scorers : Cggy(15) Roberts (1)

[Rafa D]

We will play as long as we can have fig rolls for a h/t snack?  lol

[Ciggy]

Can I play 

I can see it now, with Motty commentating

Dodd plays it square to Dom, Leon jumps two footed at Doms face, wins the ball from his own player and plays a long ball to cggy.

  Cggy takes in down beatifully, but she got two bitters in front of her, she's kicked the ball a good 15 yards in front of her, What she... oh my god, trev!  Cggy has just lifted up her top to reveal her prized assets, and the bitters are dumbfounded, she runs through, the defenders are lying on the ground obviously trying to hide instant wood, she dribbles round the keeper, and scoressss!!!!

its 16 -0 to newkit

Scorers : Cggy(15) Roberts (1)

LOL Id just knock the bitter feckers out with me ( . ) ( . )