Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

I may sound antiamerican, but I'm not. I'm anti-bush, not antiamerican, in fact I'm grateful for the postwar help they provided and for helping kicking out the nazis .

It's true that in the Malvinas war (Falklands) US didn't allow to use US soil, but they never had to, as Chile helped England in all what they needed. From US' view, what they did fear IMHO is a communist South America at those times, and Argentina hadn't such a government. That's why they sat on the fence, but not that UK needed their help either... you lot have the second best army of the world AFAICT (at least in techonology, maybe the Chinese is greater in numbers, but still).

[Big Niall]

Whoever was British PM when yanks got stuck in Vietnam was very smart. I'm sure America was saying loads about the threat of communism around the world and all that stuff but british PM probably realised that Vietnam was no threat to UK.

[LFC2007]

I may sound antiamerican, but I'm not. I'm anti-bush, not antiamerican, in fact I'm grateful for the postwar help they provided and for helping kicking out the nazis .

It's true that in the Malvinas war (Falklands) US didn't allow to use US soil, but they never had to, as Chile helped England in all what they needed. From US' view, what they did fear IMHO is a communist South America at those times, and Argentina hadn't such a government. That's why they sat on the fence, but not that UK needed their help either... you lot have the second best army of the world AFAICT (at least in techonology, maybe the Chinese is greater in numbers, but still).

I can't say I agree with you Sabre. Before 1941 and Pearl harbour they were happy to have an isolationist policy and let the axis powers grow and gradually conquer Europe and the rest of the world. Once we ran out of supplies they helped out in the form of the 'lend-lease' act - even then they charged interest on loans to us, but they didn't help defeat the Germans until 1942.

I'm grateful that they helped out eventually, but a lot more lives would have been saved if they had been committed from the beginning.

The British army is THE best army in the world Sabre, not the second best. In terms of size and power the U.S. are by far the most dominant, but in terms of quality, skill and standards the British army is the best.

[Sabre]

The British army is THE best army in the world Sabre, not the second best. In terms of size and power the U.S. are by far the most dominant, but in terms of quality, skill and standards the British army is the best.

Ok then, it's the best! for what I've heard to a military friend you're the best trained, but perhaps the war machines of the Americans (their stealth fighters and all that) are better than the European technology. Whatever happened to the Eurofighter?

Yes, I guess they could have saved more lifes if they entered the war earlier. And they could have also wiped out Franco because after all he was a Hitler árse lícker, but they preffered to have a fascist Spain rather than a communist one.

But which country of the world helps for nothing? which country of the world do not look for their own interests? we all do that.

If USA didn't enter the war, I think the Germans would have lost it eventually anyway, but it would have meant the invasion of England probably, and it would have meant a longer war that eventually ended with a Russian invasion reaching Southern Spain. The What if? are numerous, and I'm not a history expert. Anyway, thanks for this chatter, it's very didactic and entertaining really.

[LFC2007]

The British army is THE best army in the world Sabre, not the second best. In terms of size and power the U.S. are by far the most dominant, but in terms of quality, skill and standards the British army is the best.

Ok then, it's the best! for what I've heard to a military friend you're the best trained, but perhaps the war machines of the Americans (their stealth fighters and all that) are better than the European technology. Whatever happened to the Eurofighter?

Yes, I guess they could have saved more lifes if they entered the war earlier. And they could have also wiped out Franco because after all he was a Hitler árse lícker, but they preffered to have a fascist Spain rather than a communist one.

But which country of the world helps for nothing? which country of the world do not look for their own interests? we all do that.

If USA didn't enter the war, I think the Germans would have lost it eventually anyway, but it would have meant the invasion of England probably, and it would have meant a longer war that eventually ended with a Russian invasion reaching Southern Spain. The What if? are numerous, and I'm not a history expert. Anyway, thanks for this chatter, it's very didactic and entertaining really.

Of course in terms of technology, because they are the richest nation on earth!

But I disagree with you entirely about WWII sabre.

When Millions of people are being slaughtered in Europe between 1939 and 1941, our so called U.S. 'friends' were nowhere to be seen. That is unacceptble, we were on the precipice of being invaded in 1940 but do we get help from our U.S. friends? No.

Why?

Because a crumbling British Empire and a crumbling Europe suits the Americans just fine, they were happy to benefit from the extra trade in supplies, but when millions are dying (30 or so million prior to their intervention) do they come to help? No.

It's unacceptable, if it's not in their interest to help defeat a ruthless fascist dictator who is invading just about every other country on Earth - what is in their interest?


This is not just some internecine conflict like Iraq, this is a World War, the future of everyone is on the line.

That is why it is unacceptable, Sabre.

[Sabre]

I could agree that, but what did we do us, the righteous and moralistic europeans to avoid the massacre of the Balcans? nothing!! And we knew what was going on!

What did we do us, the righteous Europeans in the colonies of Africa? Nothing! We left the Sahara and many people at their own!!

And even in the WWII, what did we do us, the righteous Europeans? Spain was recovering of a civil war so we said "none of my business" (more or less), but we allowed Austria, Czech republic and other countries being grabbed by Hitler while we looked somewhere else! we only moved our ásses when we saw the danger! Just like the americans, I think.

[LFC2007]

Sabre, these are two different scenarios. One is a world war, one is internecine conflict in a specific region.

Genocide is something that happens that sometimes cannot necessarily be stopped with outside intervention. What you are referring to are ethnic tensions in specific regions, NATO did intervene to suppress the ethnic cleansing of the Milosevic regime. But this is death on a small scale compared to WWII - over 60 million dead, more than all the conflicts and genocides over the past 60 years combined.

I agree, we could have intervened more in certain situations but this is a completely different scenario to a world war and our so called 'allies' the U.S.

They are our 'friends', and when a dictator crazed with WORLD domination comes along - they decide to let us face the music on our own.


In Africa, again these are internal political conflicts that arise almost perpetually. Name me an African country that doesn't have some kind of political instability and subsequent conflict.
There are things that I think the International community could have done to prevent these things happening, but you cannot continually intervene everywhere.

The west would be seen too much as an imperialistic force, if it already isn't.

[LFC2007]

Sabre, it was a policy of appeasment that gave Germany Czechoslovakia.

Hitler broke an agreement made with the British and French and then went on to invade many other countries, one of these being Poland, the trigger to World War 2.

Being officially neutral in WWII Spain did not play any significant part other than with some independant auxilliary forces, not from Franco's military regime.
In WWII Franco was probably more pro-axis than pro-allied cause. Franco acquired the help of Fascist Italy/Germany during the civil war anyway!

[Sabre]

Being officially neutral in WWII Spain did not play any significant part other than with some independant auxilliary forces, not from the military regime.
In WWII Franco was probably more pro-axis than pro-allied cause. Franco acquired the help of Fascist Italy/Germany during the civil war anyway!

Of course he was, the fát small bástard.



They even met in Hendaye, France, near my town to discuss the Spanish intervention of the war. But Franco wanted the French morocco and other things that Hitler didn't agree to. That saved us from yet another war. We couldn't afford another one, a civil war is the most dramatic and bloody war you can get sometimes

Technically, dunno the difference to be honest, Spain was at first "non belligerent" AND THEN "neutral" when the war advanced, but in ideology, Franco was alike to Mussolini, and they preffer ANYTHING rather than the communists rule the world. That was precisely what brought the help of Eisenhower to Spain in the fifties.

And yes, Spain was the terrain in which Mussolinis divisions and Nazi bombers tried their tactics. The first ever air bombardment to a civil village was in Gernika, in the Basque country.

Franco is the responsible of 30 or 40 years of delay in the Spanish development as a modern country. What a shame 

[LFC2007]

And even in the WWII, what did we do us, the righteous Europeans? Spain was recovering of a civil war so we said "none of my business" (more or less), but we allowed Austria, Czech republic and other countries being grabbed by Hitler while we looked somewhere else! we only moved our ásses when we saw the danger! Just like the americans, I think.

Sorry Sabre, I didn't fully understand this point here.

[Sabre]

I think you already answered that with the apeassment point. I said it  because some of the books I read in the past were a bit critic with how the europeans allowed Hitler to become powerful. After all, Germany lost a war and in a few years he constructed a whole new war machinery.

But my knowledge about this is obviously smaller than yours, so I take your opinions as good, if you think Europeans did what they must in the WWII

I just meant that sometimes we europeans are very harsh on Americans while we don't see our own selfish behaviour. I think some self-criticism doesn't do harm! 


P.S. This has become the history thread. 

[LFC2007]

I agree with you there Sabre, there are some things Europe could have done to help out in other situations e.g. Darfur, but internal conflict is one thing and invading country after country in an attempt to rule the world is something on an entirely different scale.

But during the prelude to WWII the allied forces within Europe didn't hang around when Hitler invaded Poland. They allowed him to annex with Austria/Hungary and they also allowed the re-militarisation of the Rhineland and Czechoslovaki, but that was a policy of appeasement aimed at preventing another disastrous world war. The agreement was struck between Chamberlain and Hitler that he would not invade any other country after that, as it happens he abused this trust and invaded Poland, and as they say the rest is History.

This thread's gone from Blair, to Bush, to Gibraltar, to the Falklands, to Franco, to Hitler and to WWII!

[Sabre]

This thread's gone from Blair, to Bush, to Gibraltar, to the Falklands, to Franco, to Hitler and to WWII!

That's why Chelsea isn't mentioned, they have no history 

[stmichael]

When asked about Blair's successor, he said 'I look forward to working with.... Long pause (with a puzzled look on his face).......ah Gordon Brown'.

He hasn't got a clue what goes on in the world, when asked who the Pakistani President was a few years ago he didn't have a clue, even though they're a nuclear power and oneof teh most influential nations in the sub-continent. You'd think the most powerful man on earth would kno wthese things!

He needs 

To put it bluntly, Robert Maxwell would have made a better chancellor.

[zarababe]

This thread's gone from Blair, to Bush, to Gibraltar, to the Falklands, to Franco, to Hitler and to WWII!

That's why Chelsea isn't mentioned, they have no history 

  lol you lot a such a bore