Liverpool FC Forum

[woof woof !]

I've travelled in many Islamic countries including Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran . Generally I found the the majority of muslims to be amongst the most welcoming and hospitable people I have ever encounted.
However, despite the pleasant memories I have of journeys taken long ago, as an Englishman I find it impossible to trust a people who put their faith before their country . The constant cry of  "support our brothers in Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan etc etc "  leaves me with the conclusion that even muslims born and raised in Europe /USA/Australia etc see themselves as being seperate from the societies into which they were born and that muslims in England (for example) through their ideology see muslims thousands of miles away as "family" whilst at the same time viewing their non muslim neighbours (and countrymen) as "strangers"  . Considering the times we live in , this self declared alienation naturally instills deep distrust amongst the majority of the non muslim host societies , it's no wonder thefore that muslims in the west are often treated with suspicion and in many instances hostility .

Imo , until the followers of Islam resident in non muslim countries give their wholehearted loyalty to the democracies into which they have been born or migrated to, the schism between Islam and the rest of the world will only widen, culminating in unthinkable violence and bloodshed on a scale not yet seen.

Is that to difficult for even the most fanatical follower of the prophet to understand ?

[66-1112520797]

I've travelled in many Islamic countries including Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran . Generally I found the the majority of muslims to be amongst the most welcoming and hospitable people I have ever encounted.
However, despite the pleasant memories I have of journeys taken long ago, as an Englishman I find it impossible to trust a people who put their faith before their country . The constant cry of  "support our brothers in Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan etc etc "  leaves me with the conclusion that even muslims born and raised in Europe /USA/Australia etc see themselves as being seperate from the societies into which they were born and that muslims in England (for example) through their ideology see muslims thousands of miles away as "family" whilst at the same time viewing their non muslim neighbours (and countrymen) as "strangers"  . Considering the times we live in , this self declared alienation naturally instills deep distrust amongst the majority of the non muslim host societies , it's no wonder thefore that muslims in the west are often treated with suspicion and in many instances hostility .

Imo , until the followers of Islam resident in non muslim countries give their wholehearted loyalty to the democracies into which they have been born or migrated to, the schism between Islam and the rest of the world will only widen, culminating in unthinkable violence and bloodshed on a scale not yet seen.

Is that to difficult for even the most fanatical follower of the prophet to understand ?

You've just hit the nail well and truly on the head, excellent post Woof 

[89-1159041913]

id also blame the christian right of america
and american foreign policy for this prob
aswell!
bush and blair have made this far worse

[afs66]

Anyway, i edited... you are at your side, i am at my side.
All of us hate bin laden and terrorism. I will send edited parts by pm Manhattan.

[woof woof !]

Americas actions with support from the UK and other countries certainly haven't helped . it could be argued however that the  "liberated " people of Iraq are now demonstrating the very reason for which Saddam Hussein ruled them with such force ie despite their mutual faith they are in fact a bunch of murderous, criminal, power seeking zealots , a world away from the previously percieved picture of peace loving law abiding and unfairly oppressed people .

With hindsight removing the cork that kept these lunatics firmly in the bottle was possibly the worst action the western democracies could have taken.

[112-1077774096]

a couple of excelent educated posts woof      

[zarababe]

Actually Woof you make a point for which, until July 7th, I felt this was the case. I mean Muslims have always lived in peace in Britain, integrated as far as possible socially and beyond is some cases, voted, and abide by the laws of the country.

Being Muslim is a state of 'being' not naturalisation. In Islam respect  for the laws of the country you reside-in is a given. If you can't, then you need to LEAVE.

Since July 7th the net of suspicion has been cast upon all 'muslims', and this causes real anxiety with in the community. There is no doubt a 'breed' of Muslim ' is amongst 'us' that is not for living the way we 'all' have for may years, where Jew, muslim, Hindu, Christian and aetheists have lived without suspicion, as friends etc.  I have to say this is an observation which is not unique to non-muslim observors, but also to those of us who are 'moderate' followers of the faith.

The problem is that there is no one authority in the faith. So it really depends on which Mosque you attend. There is an answer, but I'll share that with you by PM is ya want.

I think that as some have said in this thread already, why is it that within the Muslim world there isn't a clamour to negate these forces? This I think emanates from:

1) A lack of unity and authority from within the Muslim world to unite against these forces;
2) Palestine and now Iraq are a blight on the Muslim governments, highlighting their inabilities to deal with the 'tyrant' in the first place, then come to Iraq's rescue against the invading forces and forcing a resolution to the Palestine problem themselves;
3) America's relentless pursuit of oil and its supply to sustain their agenda of global warming resulting in a foreign policy that inflames the raging fires of frustration in the middle east
4) Can't think of one now

Headless and divided the Muslim world can not resolve this problem of fantics and Al Qaeeda. The war on terror be it a 'myth' perpetuated by a crusader whose days himself are numbered, be it a reality which we must all face, is a war that will not be easily won, and indeed may result in deeper divsions.

[woof woof !]

Headless and divided the Muslim world can not resolve this problem of fantics and Al Qaeeda. The war on terror be it a 'myth' perpetuated by a crusader whose days himself are numbered, be it a reality which we must all face, is a war that will not be easily won, and indeed may result in deeper divsions.

Zbabe , loved yer since the day you smuggled me into Belgium inside yer knickers , but what the f'uck is that all about ? Am I a Crusader ?

[Cool Hand Luke]

So is he dead or alive?

[afs66]

Headless and divided the Muslim world can not resolve this problem of fantics and Al Qaeeda. The war on terror be it a 'myth' perpetuated by a crusader whose days himself are numbered, be it a reality which we must all face, is a war that will not be easily won, and indeed may result in deeper divsions.

Zbabe , loved yer since the day you smuggled me into Belgium inside yer knickers , but what the f'uck is that all about ? Am I a Crusader ?

Let me say something.
Of course you aren't a Crusader as same as all Muslims aren't terrorists.
I think this is the most important point that i had studied to mean with all of my posts on this thread...

[zarababe]

Headless and divided the Muslim world can not resolve this problem of fantics and Al Qaeeda. The war on terror be it a 'myth' perpetuated by a crusader whose days himself are numbered, be it a reality which we must all face, is a war that will not be easily won, and indeed may result in deeper divsions.

Zbabe , loved yer since the day you smuggled me into Belgium inside yer knickers , but what the f'uck is that all about ? Am I a Crusader ?

Yes I too remember Belgium 

I think you know what I mean Woof,  I refer here to Bush and his 'axis of evil' -type approaches.

[66-1120597113]

Hopefully dead!

Perhaps if normal peaceful muslims stood up and condemned the acts of terrorism,violence and hatred throughout the world louder and clearer these fanatics would listen!

Yes there is a certain element in the the Muslim community that are trying to work at this but i dont feel enough is being done.
People complain about feeling alienated and victimised on British soil because of their religion(yes this is sad that people feel this way).
But they need to remember that it is not our fault that we are suspicious,its simply the fault of other Muslims that are committing acts of terrorism in the name of Allah!The normal Brit in the street cannot tell the difference between a potential suicide bomber and a decent hard working Muslim man or woman.Its human nature to be suspicious sadly.
Unfortunately people are and always will be..Its like in the 70s and early 80s when the PIRA were blowing the fuc.k out of London,the locals were afraid!Hence a lot of people were suspicious of every Irish man they seen !Why??Because it was the Irish that were planting the bombs and they could not tell the average paddy looking work from a bomber!Not because they hated Irish people! Was this an act of Racism?No it was an act of fear or perhaps the oldest instinct we have...self preservation.
Was the average Irish Joe in Belfast or Dublin offended at Londoners generalising suspicions?NO...they understood their desire to live in a bomb free peacefull environment that we all have a right to!
People in England even started a 'Paddy go home campaign' as they did not trust any 'Paddy' regardless of simply looking a better life and some work or wanting to make bombs!

The reason i am trying to draw a parallel here is that because being from Ireland i can understand the English perspective back then and dont blame the paranoia and suspicion on the English nation.I blame it solely on the IRA! Full stop!

Maybe the normal decent hard working Muslim people of Britain can start to balme their fellow Muslims on our suspicions and paranoia!Maybe they can do more.Maybe they can shout out that because of the fundamentalist actions of hatred and terrorism all over the world they are being victimised and treated wrong! Maybe they can tell their brothers that because of their hate filled actions people are beginning to question Islam?
Maybe they can tell them that they're actions are doing more harm to the faith they claim to represent than good and if it does not stop soon the damage will be extremely hard to undo!

[112-1077774096]

looks like kofi anan has managed to get hold of barrys newkit password     



good post barry

[The Manhattan Project]

I will send edited parts by pm Manhattan.

Thanks, but Manhattan answers publically.


The point of my examination of your questions is to demonstrate that if you look at a situation in a biased manner, it makes one side look like victims without acknowledging their role in the conflict the world currently is experiencing.

The first four questions you posed all related to the Yugoslavian Wars. But you didn't mention in those questions that NATO intervened in Kosovo to protect the population there and Slobodan Milosovic' was placed on trial for his crimes. Thankfully he died before he could be sentenced to a life of comfort.

The Iraq War questions were slanted too. Yes in war people are displaced and civilians are killed. It's terrible. War is despicable but sometimes needed. In this case it's highly debatable whether the war in Iraq was justified. Yet this in itself is different to matters of terrorism relating to Bin Laden (the point of this thread). Everything is about context. There is a difference between civilians accidently killed in war, and a terrorist group actively seeking to inflict maximum civilian casualities.

The Palestinian and Lebanon questions are slanted too. It's all to easy to paint the situation as a "Israel=Bad, Arabs=Good". It's far more complex than that. Political and territorial debates aside, the fact is that the worst acts of terrorism against civilians in the Near East area have been committed by groups adhering to Islam.

You mentioned Afghanistan but you didn't mention the atrocities committed by the Taliban regime against the civilians. You mentioned East Turkestan, a conflict against China. Has nothing to do with the West. Has Bin Laden launched any attacks against the Chinese government? Why not? Doesn't he care about the Muslims in that region? I haven't seen any planes flying into the Forbidden City.

The bottom line is this, Bin Laden and the ilk who believe in his doctrines don't give a toss about Muslims. Muslims were in the World Trade Center when it collapsed. For Bin Laden and his followers you have to be HIS kind of Muslim, otherwise you're dead. This is a conflict with two sides. On one hand you have the Bin Ladenists. Those with a very radical extreme interpretation of their religion. On the other side you have everyone else. If you are not like them, you are a target.

Is the West totally blameless? No, it's not being helped by what I consider to be an ill-advised war in Iraq which I believe has opened a Pandora's Box and released all the internecine strive between the various factions that Saddam kept under his boot. It's not being helped by a U.S. President who speaks with religious rhetoric to satisfy a religious support base in nation where a good proportion of the population believe that the planet is only 6000 years old and that Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale. It's not being helped by the West's dependence on Arab oil which as I said before on this thread, drags us into all manner of murkiness.

But my fundamental belief is that the major conflict in the world at this moment, the war of cultures between Western liberal democracy and radical Islam-based extremism, is caused mainly by a lack of tolerance and acceptance of difference by the radical Islamic side. The only way out of this is for Islam to move to moderation and reject extremism, and more importantly, moderate Muslims must stop trying to be apologists for the more violent elements of their faith.

[woof woof !]

Headless and divided the Muslim world can not resolve this problem of fantics and Al Qaeeda. The war on terror be it a 'myth' perpetuated by a crusader whose days himself are numbered, be it a reality which we must all face, is a war that will not be easily won, and indeed may result in deeper divsions.

Zbabe , loved yer since the day you smuggled me into Belgium inside yer knickers , but what the f'uck is that all about ? Am I a Crusader ?

Yes I too remember Belgium 

I think you know what I mean Woof,  I refer here to Bush and his 'axis of evil' -type approaches.

Yeah but your reference to "Crusader" has me thinking that even you too have been infected by the propoganda spouted by some of your so called bretheren .I mean why the f'uck are you falling into the physco babble of the fanatical wing of your religion . Sure , Bush is a kunt , call him a kunt and most non muslims will agree with you , but leave out all this racial Hitlerite call to arms terminolgy with deliberate devisive stereotypying . Don't you see how the fanatics in your faith have already driven a wedge between us by merely implanting that terminology into your vocabulary .

God forbid that one day the so called "Crusaders" are finally driven to  the point (not that far away now ) where they lose their tolerance for the proclaimations of a hostile people who seem to be emotionally locked into the 13th century .