Liverpool FC Forum

[metalhead]

Hopefully dead!

Perhaps if normal peaceful muslims stood up and condemned the acts of terrorism,violence and hatred throughout the world louder and clearer these fanatics would listen!

Yes there is a certain element in the the Muslim community that are trying to work at this but i dont feel enough is being done.
People complain about feeling alienated and victimised on British soil because of their religion(yes this is sad that people feel this way).
But they need to remember that it is not our fault that we are suspicious,its simply the fault of other Muslims that are committing acts of terrorism in the name of Allah!The normal Brit in the street cannot tell the difference between a potential suicide bomber and a decent hard working Muslim man or woman.Its human nature to be suspicious sadly.
Unfortunately people are and always will be..Its like in the 70s and early 80s when the PIRA were blowing the fuc.k out of London,the locals were afraid!Hence a lot of people were suspicious of every Irish man they seen !Why??Because it was the Irish that were planting the bombs and they could not tell the average paddy looking work from a bomber!Not because they hated Irish people! Was this an act of Racism?No it was an act of fear or perhaps the oldest instinct we have...self preservation.
Was the average Irish Joe in Belfast or Dublin offended at Londoners generalising suspicions?NO...they understood their desire to live in a bomb free peacefull environment that we all have a right to!
People in England even started a 'Paddy go home campaign' as they did not trust any 'Paddy' regardless of simply looking a better life and some work or wanting to make bombs!

The reason i am trying to draw a parallel here is that because being from Ireland i can understand the English perspective back then and dont blame the paranoia and suspicion on the English nation.I blame it solely on the IRA! Full stop!

Maybe the normal decent hard working Muslim people of Britain can start to balme their fellow Muslims on our suspicions and paranoia!Maybe they can do more.Maybe they can shout out that because of the fundamentalist actions of hatred and terrorism all over the world they are being victimised and treated wrong! Maybe they can tell their brothers that because of their hate filled actions people are beginning to question Islam?
Maybe they can tell them that they're actions are doing more harm to the faith they claim to represent than good and if it does not stop soon the damage will be extremely hard to undo!

Very good post Barry, I agree, I understand British people's concerns about muslims.

us Muslim Faithfuls are trying hard to show the world we aren't so bad, but then we get threatned by Al-Quada by calling us "Traitors" and then Bush calls us "Facists" and won't listen to us, it makes it hard to get the message through to non-muslim public.

[66-1120597113]

Headless and divided the Muslim world can not resolve this problem of fantics and Al Qaeeda. The war on terror be it a 'myth' perpetuated by a crusader whose days himself are numbered, be it a reality which we must all face, is a war that will not be easily won, and indeed may result in deeper divsions.

Zbabe , loved yer since the day you smuggled me into Belgium inside yer knickers , but what the f'uck is that all about ? Am I a Crusader ?

Yes I too remember Belgium 

I think you know what I mean Woof,  I refer here to Bush and his 'axis of evil' -type approaches.

Yeah but your reference to "Crusader" has me thinking that even you too have been infected by the propoganda spouted by some of your so called bretheren .I mean why the f'uck are you falling into the physco babble of the fanatical wing of your religion . Sure , Bush is a kunt , call him a kunt and most non muslims will agree with you , but leave out all this racial Hitlerite call to arms terminolgy with deliberate devisive stereotypying . Don't you see how the fanatics in your faith have already driven a wedge between us by merely implanting that terminology into your vocabulary .

God forbid that one day the so called "Crusaders" are finally driven to  the point (not that far away now ) where they lose their tolerance for the proclaimations of a hostile people who seem to be emotionally locked into the 13th century .

Dont panic Woof.........They can only 'crusade' so far! If i had my way lol


GREAT WIN !! WHAT A GAME!!YNWA

[zarababe]

Relax woof, I see how the term looks, even though I use it slackly to refer to the rhetoric of that 'k' Bush.

But I see how it can seem offensive, which is what I did not intend. You know from my previous posts that I too hold the same concerns and issues as most.

When muslim leaders come out and delcare they're condemnation for the acts of Terror, those words are not enough, much needs to be done within the community to know what is happening to drive people to take their own lives


I find it extremely difficult to understand the misconceptions that are being sold to young people, for them to become traitors and murderers through the act of suicide bombing.

People also forget the battle raging under Pakistan's president Musharaff, whose battle against the extremists has made him vulnerable and placed his own life at risk. He is steadfast, whatever the coercion, and is standing shoulder to shoulder in the battle to defeat these lunes. People should not forget that here is a Leader, from the muslim world who has stood shoulder to shoulder with the rest in seeking to defeat this problem, not jus through word but f.uckin damn right Action too.

[66-1120597113]

Still not trusted!

[woof woof !]

People also forget the battle raging under Pakistan's president Musharaff, whose battle against the extremists has made him vulnerable and placed his own life at risk. He is steadfast, whatever the coercion, and is standing shoulder to shoulder in the battle to defeat these lunes. People should not forget that here is a Leader, from the muslim world who has stood shoulder to shoulder with the rest in seeking to defeat this problem, not jus through word but f.uckin damn right Action too.

True Zbabe, the Pakistani gov't has played a crucial part in fighting the likes of Bin Laden , the Taliban and other extremists .

The so called tribal area's that run along the Afghan /Pakistan border are like the old wild west and virtually impossible to police . The Pakistan gov't has a massive job on it's hands dealing with this  border issue and also that of the internal security of it's major cities and towns . They are to be congratulated for their part in the fight against terror.

[Judge]

err.....good morning

[89-1159041913]

the war on terror is just making things worse
if american foreign policy was more diplomatic
instead of invading countries for blood and oil
this out of scale problem with fundamentalists
who claim to be islamic wouldnt b such a
problem.

george bush said a few years back that
he was on a christian crusade, he
and the republican party are just as bad
as bin laden. he's fighting fire with fire
and he will get burnt.

dont mistake me for being a muslim, im a catholic
although i choose not to follow ne religion
but to me it seems like a battle between
christian fundamentalists known as
evalanglists and islamic fundamentalists.

america has created most of this problem
but not keeping their nose out of other
countries political affairs and issues.
instead they preach their liberty, which is a joke
and then ramn their constituion down your throat
then steal your resources so they can become
the worlds hyper-power.

if america leave the middle east alone, i can see
this problem calming down, but every country
which they go in an invade they are making the problem worse.

that's just my take on it, im only young so i'm probs wrong, but i just thought
i add my words.

[afs66]

Thanks, but Manhattan answers publically.

afs will write smthing publicly, too 

The first four questions you posed all related to the Yugoslavian Wars. But you didn't mention in those questions that NATO intervened in Kosovo to protect the population there

Oh sorry. Therefore, let me mention. Thank you Nato to interve in Kosava to protect the population. Where were you NATO or UN or Fredom and Democravy Warrior(USA) while the population was  being slayed in Bosnia?

Slobodan Milosovic' was placed on trial for his crimes. Thankfully he died before he could be sentenced to a life of comfort

I think this is tragicomic. Genocide->Trial   No comment.

The Iraq War questions were slanted too. Yes in war people are displaced and civilians are killed. It's terrible. War is despicable but sometimes needed. In this case it's highly debatable whether the war in Iraq was justified. Yet this in itself is different to matters of terrorism relating to Bin Laden (the point of this thread). Everything is about context. There is a difference between civilians accidently killed in war, and a terrorist group actively seeking to inflict maximum civilian casualities.

Ok. if you ask a question "why Shies and Sunnnies" are killing each other in Iraq, i would ask a question "why weren't they killing each other before "Great CIVILIZATION!" took the control?" And naturally, i would put the events in Iraq on , to USA and its supporters. And no-one can persuade me or no-one can persuade majority of the World for "civillians were accidently killed in Iraq" idea.  ANyway, you took my PM, and i think you saw the accidently killing(!) event  

The Palestinian and Lebanon questions are slanted too. It's all to easy to paint the situation as a "Israel=Bad, Arabs=Good". It's far more complex than that. Political and territorial debates aside, the fact is that the worst acts of terrorism against civilians in the Near East area have been committed by groups adhering to Islam.

Everything that i mentioned are slanted, ok. And your examples aren't slanted. We shouldn't paint the situation as "Israel=Bad, Arabs=Good" , but also we have right to paint the situations "Islam=Bad, Whole World=Good" ?? I said before in my posts that i was trying not to be prejudiced. There are Israel actions(a Goverment has heavy wepons, artiellry, fighter aircraft) and there are Palestinian Guerilla reactions (a GROUP hasnt got aircrafts, heavy wepons, artiellry,...)

You mentioned Afghanistan but you didn't mention the atrocities committed by the Taliban regime against the civilians. You mentioned East Turkestan, a conflict against China. Has nothing to do with the West.

Of course i know the atrocities commited by the Taliban regime against the civilians. And i also dont approve. But i wonder this: Why is America there and Why wasn't America in Bosnia? Because Afghanistan's position is strategical in Asia. And what did America say about the Afghanistan Occupy?-->Defeating Terrorism Other question: Wasn't there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in Bosnia? or Wasn't there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in Lebanon? Isnt there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in Chechenya? Isn't there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in East Turkestan? Why don't USA(Democracy and Freedom Warrior) try to defeat terrorism from Chechenya, East Turkestan, Lebanon,Bosnia? Or isn't there really any terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan? Or do you think America want to be rightfull for its actions by blaming Islam? And do you think all of the world believe these shi.ts?  Anyway....

Has Bin Laden launched any attacks against the Chinese government? Why not? Doesn't he care about the Muslims in that region? I haven't seen any planes flying into the Forbidden City

Mate, i think i couldn't tell my oppinions or you don't want to understand me. I hate Bin Laden and AlQuaide. I dont accept them as Muslims. They are charlatans who commit their actions under the name of Islam. I said these words many times in this thread, but i think no-one cares.

And i'm tired because, it took 1,5 hours to translate your post. I will give answer to your last 3 paragraphs soon.


The substance:Or isn't there really any terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan? Or do you think America want to be rightfull for its actions by blaming Islam? And do you think all of the world believe these shi.ts? and I hate Bin Laden and AlQuaide. I dont accept them as Muslims. They are charlatans who commit their actions under the name of Islam.

[The Manhattan Project]

Oh sorry. Therefore, let me mention. Thank you Nato to interve in Kosava to protect the population.

Excellent.

Where were you NATO or UN or Fredom and Democravy Warrior(USA) while the population was  being slayed in Bosnia?

I think this is tragicomic. Genocide->Trial   No comment.

So, you want the United States to police the world? Or do you only want them to police to world to protect Muslims? Where was the Arab world when Muslims were being killed during the Yugoslavian Wars? Did Iran, Turkey, Egypt or Syria intervene?

Ok. if you ask a question "why Shies and Sunnnies" are killing each other in Iraq, i would ask a question "why weren't they killing each other before "Great CIVILIZATION!" took the control?"

Because a dictator with a moustachio had a gun to their heads. The Sunni/Shia thing was always inevitable. It was going to happen sooner or later.

And naturally, i would put the events in Iraq on , to USA and its supporters. And no-one can persuade me or no-one can persuade majority of the World for "civillians were accidently killed in Iraq" idea.

That is your right if you wish to buy into those kind of conspiracy theories. If the United States wanted to kill Iraqi civilians, the power of the atom would suffice. If the world's most powerful nation wanted them dead, they would all be dead. And don't try to speak for "the majority of the world". That's like Bob Geldof absurdly saying that Nelson Mandela should be "president of the world". 

ANyway, you took my PM, and i think you saw the accidently killing(!) event

I never opened it. Manhattan insists on public communication.   

Everything that i mentioned are slanted, ok.

Yes I agree.

And your examples aren't slanted.

They aren't. They merely provide context and balance.

We shouldn't paint the situation as "Israel=Bad, Arabs=Good" , but also we have right to paint the situations "Islam=Bad, Whole World=Good" ??

No, such actions would be equally absurd.

That's why Manhattan uses a more complex approach.

There are Israel actions(a Goverment has heavy wepons, artiellry, fighter aircraft) and there are Palestinian Guerilla reactions (a GROUP hasnt got aircrafts, heavy wepons, artiellry,...)

So? The Palestinian "guerrillas" (IE: terrorists") use suicide bombers too. Should the IDF create their own "Suicide Bomber Corps?"

Of course i know the atrocities commited by the Taliban regime against the civilians. And i also dont approve. But i wonder this: Why is America there

Two reasons really. 1) The Taliban were harbouring terrorists who were training to strike at Western targets and 2) Afghanistan probably has a strategic value.

Why wasn't America in Bosnia?

Since when is America the protector of Muslims?

Haven't enough American lives been wasted on cleaning up the mess that mainland Europe causes?

Because Afghanistan's position is strategical in Asia. And what did America say about the Afghanistan Occupy?-->Defeating Terrorism  Other question: Wasn't there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in Bosnia? or Wasn't there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in Lebanon? Isnt there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in Chechenya? Isn't there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in East Turkestan? Why don't USA(Democracy and Freedom Warrior) try to defeat terrorism from Chechenya, East Turkestan, Lebanon,Bosnia? Or isn't there really any terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan? Or do you think America want to be rightfull for its actions by blaming Islam? And do you think all of the world believe these shi.ts?  Anyway....

Again, I ask, why do you want America to protect Muslims when many in the Muslim world call the United States "infidels" and "The Great Satan?"

What possible reason does the United States have for intervening?

Where are all the Muslim nations of the world when their "brothers" need help?

Mate, i think i couldn't tell my oppinions or you don't want to understand me.

Don't confuse "disagreement" with "misunderstanding".

I hate Bin Laden and AlQuaide. I dont accept them as Muslims. They are charlatans who commit their actions under the name of Islam. I said these words many times in this thread, but i think no-one cares.

That's because it's only half of the issue.

You mention hating Bin Laden and his Al-Qaeda organisation. Manhattan understands that. Manhattan has always seperated moderate Muslims from the extremists by using the prefix "radical".

But your arguments are incoherant. On one hand you sarcastically label America as being a "Democracy and Freedom Warrior" with the intent to show (as is my understanding) that they do nothing of the sort and instead only intervene in nations who have threatened them and/or whom also have a strategic value while also asking why they don't intervene in other instances where Muslims are supposedly persecuted.

I see a contradiction here. Personally I think it's very reasonable for the United States and even the UK to only intervene in nations which have posed either a threat and/or hold some kind of value, provided that said intervention is the right thing to do. I have little doubt that if the United States and other Western allied nations intervened in every politicial situation you describe, that they would quickly be labelled as being "imperialist" or "trying to police the world" or "interfering in Muslim affairs" etc....

So either way, America are screwed. Either action brings scorn and acts as a rallying call for more violence against them and the West.

What the Muslims suffering in various nations need to ask is not "Where Are America (The Great Satan Infidels) To Save Us?" but rather "Where Are The Other Muslim Nations To Save Us?"

The only way to really root out extremism is for moderates of the same community to challenge their radical views.

So instead of some Muslim apologist saying some nonsense like "Yes, September 11th was appalling....but U.S foreign policy....blah blah blah...." it's up to them to take the radicals to task.

That's how you overcome ignorance. Not just in the Islamic faith, but in all segments of society. The reasonable members of society have to break down the "arguments" (IE: irrational rants) of their own fringe elements.

[Lando_Griffin]

This thread could bring on someone's Epilepsy!!!!

[afs66]

You asked this question on one of your previous posts:

Has Bin Laden launched any attacks against the Chinese government? Why not? Doesn't he care about the Muslims in that region? I haven't seen any planes flying into the Forbidden City.

Hereupon, i said Bin Laden was already a terrorist and USA was “Democracy and Freedom Warrior”. And they began the war which was based in Democracy and Freedom, against terrorism, because of this they are now in Iraq and Afghanistan. Then i reminded the other terrorism events like East Turkestan, Chechenya, Lebanon, etc…. So, after your question , i asked this question :

Wasn't there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in Bosnia? or Wasn't there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in Lebanon? Isnt there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in Chechenya? Isn't there terrorism(Goverment Terrorism) in East Turkestan? Why don't USA(Democracy and Freedom Warrior) try to defeat terrorism from Chechenya, East Turkestan, Lebanon,Bosnia?

And now ,you are slanting the issue and asking this question:

Where are all the Muslim nations of the world when their "brothers" need help?

Now, pls divulge the contradiction. How can you decide that i want america to protect Muslims after the conversation above?? I’m sorry but there is someone telling slanted things who isn’t me….
Besides, i dont want America to protect Muslims. I just want America to keep away from Muslims and to be consistent in its own actions. I dont want America to kill innocent people while begining the war against killers of innocent people.

So? The Palestinian "guerrillas" (IE: terrorists") use suicide bombers too. Should the IDF create their own "Suicide Bomber Corps?"

No, they should go away from the lands where was occupied by them. If you enter my house to comit burglary, you must risk for dying. After your death by me, your relatives shouldn’t complain.

it's only half of the issue.Manhattan understands that. Manhattan has always seperated moderate Muslims from the extremists by using the prefix "radical".

And same, it’s only half of the issue.

If the United States wanted to kill Iraqi civilians, the power of the atom would suffice. If the world's most powerful nation wanted them dead, they would all be dead.

I don’t take this sentence serious. Because it is childish. And it isn’t proving that America dont kill civilians. I’ll give a statistical information: 3900 Iraqi civilians have died in July….

And don't try to speak for "the majority of the world". That's like Bob Geldof absurdly saying that Nelson Mandela should be "president of the world". 

Yes, majority of the world. You think it is absurd but it doesnt prove anything again. And pls don’t give me local examples like Bob Gedolf, East London, West Browmwich, blah blah. Because i dont live in England and i dont give examples from Yukari Nohutlu, Middle Yozgat, Zekeriya Beyaz, etc…I said this because, you had asked before what religion was blah blah’s murderer,etc…

What the Muslims suffering in various nations need to ask is not "Where Are America (The Great Satan Infidels) To Save Us?" but rather "Where Are The Other Muslim Nations To Save Us?"

This is not true. You are distorting the words. I explained above why i asked “where was America”. And no Muslim want America to save them. Muslims want America just dont touch themselves.

Where was the Arab world when Muslims were being killed during the Yugoslavian Wars? Did Iran, Turkey, Egypt or Syria intervene?

Actually, i dont care why the Arab world do nothing. Because Arabs are unableness to defend thier own countries. And they don't care other Muslims all over the world. Same they hadn't care Ottoman against UK while 1st World War. And they are now taking the consequences. I will talk about Turkiye, cuz im Turk. We Turks aren't like Arabs. We always care our brothers even if they betray us.Turkiye had protected all the Muslims for 650 years. Turkiye had already performed its duity. But unfortunatelly we arent strong enough now. When we get strong, USA and its supporters wont be able to meddle Muslim world anymore. And we will protect those unable Arab World again while their own (genetical) brothers are living in luxury in Saudi Arabia ,UAE, .. .

Bob

great, i agree

Geldof

No, it is wrong. Afs hadn't wanted to argue anymore. So he had sent a PM. Blah, blah , blah,...

[Rafa D]

Blah Blah Blah  Osama bin Laden Fecks Goats!!

[JBG]

The question is not whether Bin Laden is dead but it is "why"?

[EddieC]

Rafa-Dodd, what happened to your avatar? The blonde was much better.

[Rafa D]

Worksafe  - got a warning in work today!!