Spanish primera división 06/07 - All your questions here

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Postby Barca Murph » Sun May 13, 2007 1:15 pm

zarababe wrote:Wow amazing how Capello seems to have hauled Real back - wonder if Barca's fall is linked to the CL loss to us?

Does this mean Capello is safe for time being at Real?

Barca have been below par all season, so it has nothing to do with losing to Liverpool. Main factor this season was the loss of Eto'o and Messi for big spells of the season. Also other players form hasn't been great. I also believe the loss of Henk Ten Cate to Ajax is a huge reason we're not the same Barca. I said when he left it would be a big blow, but alot of people didn't agree. Strange how now some of those people are starting to think the same.

Our away form is the only reason we've not won the league already. reial might be the form team right now, but i don't think that takes away from the fact they've been poor most of the season.

What ever happens i think Capello is gone at the end of the season. The only reason he is still there is that if they sacked him before June, they'd have to pay him a reported 30million.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Sun May 13, 2007 1:22 pm

Only in Spain ( or should that be Madrid ) would you still get the sack after winning la liga , absolute madness.
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Postby Barca Murph » Sun May 13, 2007 1:28 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Only in Spain ( or should that be Madrid ) would you still get the sack after winning la liga , absolute madness.

reial have sacked managers who've won even more in a season.
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Postby RUSHIE#9 » Sun May 13, 2007 1:28 pm

Barca Murph wrote:
zarababe wrote:Wow amazing how Capello seems to have hauled Real back - wonder if Barca's fall is linked to the CL loss to us?

Does this mean Capello is safe for time being at Real?

Barca have been below par all season, so it has nothing to do with losing to Liverpool. Main factor this season was the loss of Eto'o and Messi for big spells of the season. Also other players form hasn't been great. I also believe the loss of Henk Tate Cate to Ajax is a huge reason we're not the same Barca. I said when he left it would be a big blow, but alot of people didn't agree. Strange how now some of those people are starting to think the same.

Our away form is the only reason we've not won the league already. reial might be the form team right now, but i don't think that takes away from the fact they've been poor most of the season.

What ever happens i think Capello is gone at the end of the season. The only reason he is still there is that if they sacked him before June, they'd have to pay him a reported 30million.

I've been saying at home that since the drop off in form they really seem to be missing HENK CATE. At times in the past couple of months that Rijkaard seemed to be at a loss as to what needed to be done. It's been surprising at times when the team has been playing poorly and losing to see Rijkaard just sitting in the dugout. I only have tv pictures to go on but it doesn't really promote confidence when you see the manager looking clueless.

BARCA MURPH, is there any feeling amongst the Barca members/fans that it may be time for a change of coach?
I was really surprised to hear a story about Rijkaard allegedly saying that he doesn't really control the dressing room like conventional managers do and he sometimes doesn't even talk to the players at half time. If that is true I find it totally amazing that a manager can be so removed from his players.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Sun May 13, 2007 1:32 pm

Barca Murph wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:Only in Spain ( or should that be Madrid ) would you still get the sack after winning la liga , absolute madness.

reial have sacked managers who've won even more in a season.

Didn't Del Bosque get the sack after winning the champions league.
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Postby Barca Murph » Sun May 13, 2007 2:12 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Didn't Del Bosque get the sack after winning the champions league.

Not quite, it was the year after, having just won the league  :laugh:

In a 4 year spell he won 2 league titles, the CL, the Intercontinental Cup, the European Super Cup and 2 Spanish Super Cups.

You gotta laugh at the idiots in control of this club.
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Postby Barca Murph » Sun May 13, 2007 2:29 pm

RUSHIE#9 wrote:I've been saying at home that since the drop off in form they really seem to be missing HENK CATE. At times in the past couple of months that Rijkaard seemed to be at a loss as to what needed to be done. It's been surprising at times when the team has been playing poorly and losing to see Rijkaard just sitting in the dugout. I only have tv pictures to go on but it doesn't really promote confidence when you see the manager looking clueless.

BARCA MURPH, is there any feeling amongst the Barca members/fans that it may be time for a change of coach?
I was really surprised to hear a story about Rijkaard allegedly saying that he doesn't really control the dressing room like conventional managers do and he sometimes doesn't even talk to the players at half time. If that is true I find it totally amazing that a manager can be so removed from his players.

Henk was the person all the players respected, and he made them more disciplined. You're right when you say Frank doesn't seem to control things like a manager should. Sabre has mentioned it a few times before, but some players get special treatment when it comes to training. And by that i mean if they turn up or not. Now thats all well and good when things are going well, but when it's all hands to the pump time you just don't expect it.

I know of a few fans that have never been happy with Frank (even with all we've won under him). But now there seems to be alot of people wanting him to leave. I'm very much on the border line as i appreciate what he has done for the club, but after that defeat to Getafe i could have killed him. I'm willing to give him till the end of the season to prove he can still cut it at Barca. But if the rumours about his overall control are true, it might be best he left what ever happens.

I don't want us becoming another reial madrid where players pretty much run what goes on.
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Postby Sabre » Sun May 13, 2007 2:38 pm

Kill Rijkaard? why?

He put the second goalie Jorquera right, but he did a good game and everything. Oleguer is not good enough for that club, but then, he never has been. Quite simply with Xavi, Ronaldinho, Eto'o, and for that matter all the players who played, if you do well what you have trained along the week, you cannot receive a 4-0.

When Barcelona wins everybody looks at Ronaldinho (not my fav player) when Barcelona gets spanked, I wouldn't look at Rijkaard first.

Anyway, it's true that IT SEEMS he should be harsher with the players sometimes. If Eto'o picked that micro a while ago, I'm sure it was because he sees things in the dressroom that are not normal.
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Postby Barca Murph » Sun May 13, 2007 2:43 pm

Simply because the buck always stops with the manager. A team like Barca should NEVER get totally outplayed like that. Thats not me being arrogant, just the fact with the squad we have we shouldn't be embarassed. Sure we'll lose games, as no team can win them all. But to be humiliated 4-0 like that?

Frank must have been able to see we were being dominated, and it's down to him to change things to prevent that.
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Postby Sabre » Sun May 13, 2007 3:40 pm

Fair enough.

Oh, a quick note, if you ever put money in Spanish game, just remember that uncle Sabre doesn't remember ONE SINGLE TIME in which Espanyol doesn't lose against Real Madrid in a match in which there's something in the stake for Real Madrid.  :devil:
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Postby red37 » Sun May 13, 2007 9:02 pm

Nice article ive just read from todays Sunday Times regarding Spanish managers influence in European Football:

************************************************


Tracksuit armada

(From Wednesday’s Uefa Cup final to Rafa Benitez, Spanish coaches dominate Europe)

Ian Hawkey


Quiz question: name the last English manager to win a European trophy. The answer lies a long way back, exactly a decade. It is hoped that Sir Bobby Robson feels in strong enough health tomorrow to raise a glass on the 10th anniversary of his guiding Barcelona to victory in the final of the old Cup Winners’ Cup.

There are fewer senior cups in Europe now and far fewer English managers anywhere near them. Ten years on from Robson, a Spanish manager is far likelier to take a Premiership club to a Champions League title rather than the other way around.

More than that, a Spanish manager seems to have more chance than a Frenchman, a Scot, a Portuguese or anybody else of winning the majors.

This month guarantees a Spaniard being congratulated when the medals are given out for the Continent’s principal events.

A Spanish coach will lift Wednesday’s Uefa Cup in Glasgow, be it Juande Ramos of Sevilla, the holders, or the young and impressive Ernesto Valverde, who has led Espanyol through a tough set of ties to make their first continental final for 19 years. Seven nights later in Athens, their compatriot Rafa Benitez prepares for his second successful attempt at the big one, the Champions League.

They are the tracksuit armada. For the fourth May in succession, a Spanish tactician will end up with either the Uefa or the European Cup.

It would be neat to say that this all represents the fruition of a grand Iberian scheme to develop coaches and that the FA might learn something from its Spanish counterparts. It is not as simple that. In fact there are areas of Spanish football that still regard native managers rather snootily: Real Madrid and Barcelona, for instance.

None of Barcelona’s past 10 league titles, dating all the way back into the mid1970s, was won with Spanish coaches at the helm, and although the last man to bring any significant trophy to Madrid was Vicente del Bosque, Real have since offered long-term coaching contracts only to a Portuguese, a Brazilian and an Italian – with two Spanish caretakers in between – and when they gave the job to another Spaniard, Jose Antonio Camacho, he lasted barely two months.

Recent history is full of unspoken admonishments for these two grand clubs for failing to nurture their own. Benitez started his senior coaching education with Real Madrid’s reserve and apprentice squads; when they ask him back to take over the first XI, he now turns the club down. Ramos was in charge of Barcelona B 10 years ago: this season, his Sevilla team have beaten Barcelona proper twice.

Yet prospects of advancement and glory would have looked slender to Ramos, 52, and Benitez, 47, a decade ago. Between 1986 and 2000, no Spanish coach even won La Liga, let alone anything in Europe. So when Javier Irureta celebrated taking Deportivo La Coruña to the Spanish league title seven seasons ago, he immediately drew attention to his passport and to his buddies. He had, he said in his unamplified way, reminded his country’s club presidents that Spaniards could think and plan a good game as well as play it.

It looked like a turning point. Del Bosque won the European Cup that year, La Liga the next, and repeated Real Madrid’s Champions League triumph in Glasgow in 2002, just as young Benitez was closing in, as Valencia manager, on the domestic championship. Ol�. The game’s new ringmasters appeared to be from Spain.

“Rafa Benitez has opened the door for us,” says the ambitious Ramos, talking not just about domestic esteem, but noting that Spanish managers are now wanted elsewhere. Benitez can collect his applause as Spain’s international pathfinder first-hand when he arrives in Athens. This season’s Greek championship has featured a number of clubs managed by Spaniards, including the heavyweights AEK Athens and Panathinaikos.

“What is obvious now is that Spanish coaches are properly prepared, that they have a training for it,” says Del Bosque, who managed Besiktas of Turkey after Madrid sacked him the night he won them their most recent league title, in 2003. “We’re as well equipped now as anybody,” adds Camacho, who coached Portugal’s Benfica for rather longer than he lingered at Madrid.

As for the pair who meet in Glasgow, they are from distinct generations, Ramos five years older than Benitez, Valverde four years younger at 43. Ramos and Benitez had playing careers of minor impact, curtailed by injury.

Valverde was a winger nicknamed The Ant for his busy style and slight frame. He spent two seasons at Barcelona. He was not quite forceful enough to make himself a regular first-teamer in the Barça of Michael Laudrup, Romario and Hristo Stoichkov, but he remained a favourite at Espanyol, from whom Barcelona had signed him.

He would also play successfully at Athletic Bilbao, the club that employs only Basque footballers: Valverde had enough Basque in his background to meet that requirement and to appreciate Bilbao’s sense of local loyalty. His first management job was at Athletic; one of the features of his work at Espanyol has been his readiness to promote to the first-team players who have grown up through the club’s academy.

For a club such as Espanyol, recruiting the best young local footballers is a challenge. They are lucky in that they come from a big, well-populated city, Barcelona. They are damned because by no stretch of the imagination can they think that they are anything other than the second-most-popular club in that city. They have some good former Barça men in their ranks, such as the midfield creator Ivan de la Pena, and Valverde encourages football played with speed and width.

He is skilfully handling Wednesday’s underdog status. Fatigue may prey on Sevilla, who have other targets on their minds, he suggests. Espanyol sit mid-table in La Liga, Sevilla lie third. Ramos’s team have also just reached the Spanish Cup final, the trophy Espanyol won last year but stopped defending months ago.

This is Valverde’s first season in charge of Espanyol. Ramos took over at Sevilla in 2005 and inherited a fine squad with a strong tradition of local talent and good scouting. Before his arrival he had been warned about the claustrophobic nature of work in the city of Spain’s bitchiest local derby.

Unlike Barcelona, where Barça are clearly mightier than Espanyol; or Madrid, where Atletico are economically obliged to play the upstart next to Real, Sevilla and Real Betis size up as obsessive would-be equals, bilious rivals, their meetings almost Glaswegian in ferocity.

Ramos used to coach Betis. Two-and-a-half months ago, somebody in the expensive home seats at the Betis stadium sized up the Sevilla manager, the former betico,and aimed a bottle full of liquid at his head. It struck Ramos as he patrolled his technical area in a cup derby, hitting him high on the neck. He spent the night in hospital. The large purple bruise has only lately faded away.

Coaching kings of Spain

The fact that Spain supplies both teams for Wednesday’s Uefa Cup final ensures that a Spanish coach will add yet another glittering prize to their country’s trophy cabinet. And with Rafa Benitez guiding Liverpool to the Champions League final, it could be a clean sweep. The success of Sevilla’s Juande Ramos and Ernesto Valverde of Espanyol also serves to highlight the lack of success in Europe by English coaches

Juande Ramos, right, Sevilla, 2005

Age: 52. Close to being thought a journeyman coach after eight years in the top division with Rayo Vallecano, Real Betis, Espanyol and Malaga. Then took Sevilla to Uefa Cup in first season and made them, even in mid-May, strong challengers for a Quadruple in 2007

Ernesto Valverde, left, Espanyol 2006

Age: 43. A winger with Espanyol, Barcelona and Athletic Bilbao as a player, made a ? ne start as head coach at Athletic Bilbao. In his ? rst season at Espanyol he has guided them to their first European final in 19 years

Spanish winners in Europe since 1997

2000 European Cup, Vicente Del Bosque, Real Madrid
2002 European Cup, Vicente Del Bosque, Real Madrid
2004 Uefa Cup, Rafa Benitez, Valencia
2005 European Cup, Rafa Benitez, Liverpool
2006 Uefa Cup, Juande Ramos, Sevilla
2007 Uefa Cup, Juande Ramos, Sevilla, or Ernesto Valverde, Espanyol

English winners in Europe since 1997
1997 Cup-Winners’ Cup, Bobby Robson, Barcelona
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Postby Sabre » Sun May 13, 2007 9:18 pm

Decent journalism except for a couple of details.

Txingurri (The ant) Valverde wasn't a winger, but a quick second striker.

While the article stress much about Vicente del Bosque, Juande Ramos, and Valverde, perhaps they're getting too much credit for what they've done.

Juande Ramos has done an excellent work for Sevilla, but had an excellent squad to work with. This excellent squad was done by Joaquin Caparros, who has done well to put in a safe place to a too young and ordinary Deportivo, and Monchi, their man for signing ups, who was spot on selecting the signing ups for that team.

Vicente del Bosque? you'll never hear of him aswell. Ex Real Madrid player, he's a man of football of the old school, and his tactics book aren't as vast and updated as the ones of his colleagues. He was successful at some point in Real Madrid, due to him being a softy in a team that was very good at the time. He'll never do anything relevant again, despite many people give him credit, IMHO.

Valverde has done well sending the Periquitos to the UEFA final, and I think he's a growing coach, but not sure if he's as good as others.

The article is spot on giving credit to Irureta, great manager.
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Postby Sabre » Mon May 14, 2007 8:38 am

4 games to go:

Real Madrid 66
2 Barcelona 66
3 Sevilla 64
4 Valencia 62
5 Zaragoza 55
6 Atlético 54
7 Recreativo 50
8 Villarreal 50
9 Getafe 49
10 Racing 49
11 Mallorca 48
12 Espanyol 45
13 Deportivo 44
14 Osasuna 37
15 Betis 36
16 Levante 36
17 Athletic 34
18 R. Sociedad 30
19 Celta 30
20 Nástic 24


It can happen literally anything in the top and the bottom. Real Sociedad - Celta next week. Whoever wins, they'll have serious chances to maintain category. Good thing for Real Sociedad is that most of our points have been achieved recently and we have a slightly easier games than others.

You cannot get a tighter league than this!  :D
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Postby zarababe » Mon May 14, 2007 11:20 am

Barca Murph wrote:
zarababe wrote:Wow amazing how Capello seems to have hauled Real back - wonder if Barca's fall is linked to the CL loss to us?

Does this mean Capello is safe for time being at Real?

Barca have been below par all season, so it has nothing to do with losing to Liverpool. Main factor this season was the loss of Eto'o and Messi for big spells of the season. Also other players form hasn't been great. I also believe the loss of Henk Ten Cate to Ajax is a huge reason we're not the same Barca. I said when he left it would be a big blow, but alot of people didn't agree. Strange how now some of those people are starting to think the same.

Our away form is the only reason we've not won the league already. reial might be the form team right now, but i don't think that takes away from the fact they've been poor most of the season.

What ever happens i think Capello is gone at the end of the season. The only reason he is still there is that if they sacked him before June, they'd have to pay him a reported 30million.

Thanks, that's interesting - looks like Ronaldinhio hasn't been quite the same player too.

Should be an interesting end to their season !
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Postby dada » Mon May 14, 2007 10:24 pm

Last edited by dada on Mon May 14, 2007 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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