Liverpool FC Forum

by **72-1136150807** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:24 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:It's the "Rafa-type-of-player" point that I'm disagreeing with.

I think that - on a very general level - Crouch and Morientes are a similar type of player. You don't rotate 4 of the same type of player in a squad, hence the balls-out pace of Cisse, and the tricky, slightly unpredictable type of game of Pongolle.

I think Rafa actually likes the contrast in styles, and I think all four have a future at LFC.

I have to disagree, Rafa obviously does have a 'type of player' in my opinion, and it isnt just based on a players ability. It also encompasses their mental abilty 'right mentality' as we frequently hear.

Hardly anyone wanted us to buy Crouch, and other teams fans were laughing, but who is having the last laugh now? Rafa! We thought 'he isnt a Liverpool player', the thing and most importantly was, he was a Rafa 'type' player, from what he can bring to the team as a whole and obviously his mentality too.

Yes, we have different attributes amongst our four strikers, but we hardly seen them complementing each other. Its often Crouch or Mori on their own, or those two together or Cisse/Crouch somethimes.

I just think Rafa, has given Djib a chance and doesnt see him in his LONG TERM plans at all. He wants players that bring more to the team as a whole, rather than just the scoring record and stats.
Which is hard to say, as I really wanted him to succeed here. And though I believe with a serious run of games to prove his worth, he would, I know this will not happen, barring many injuries to the other strikers.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:24 pm

The problem is, we don't have Rush, Fowler and Owen.

We have Crouch, who has played consistently well all season, and then you have Cisse, Morientes and Pongolle, none of whom have exactly nailed themselves to the first 11.

For now, totally, give Pongo his chance. Even if he's poor against Spurs persevere with him for another couple of games.

If Cisse comes on and bangs one in though, he deserves to be given the chance. Last season he was in form, then the leg went, and it was obviously just good to see him on his feet towards the end of the campaign. This year he's been in and out of the side, and although he's been guilty of some shocking decision making and frequently poor touch, there's still something about him that makes me think one day things will click with him.

It's not 5 games in the side for the crowd's benefit either stu, it's 5 straight games for the benefit of the player. Owen frequently had phases after being injured where he'd plod along on the defender's shoulder to no effect, and you wouldn't even notice him on the pitch. Then, a couple of games later he'd pop up and score with his only contribution of the game, then the next game you'd see him more, and you'll gradually see faith in selecting him being repaid game after game. With strikers, it's a gradual thing though. Fowler was the same.

If we end up selling Cisse without giving him a decent run in the side, it'll be ridiculous.

by **72-1136150807** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:26 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:If we end up selling Cisse without giving him a decent run in the side, it'll be ridiculous.

Definetly agree with that.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:27 pm

Exactly.

The way i see it.

Best finisher: Rush, Owen, Fowler.

Best alround goalscorer: Fowler, Owen, Rush

Best at reading the flight of the ball and beating defenders to it (fox in the box): Fowler, Rush Owen

Best alround player: Owen, Fowler, Rush

Best attitude on the pitch: Rush, Owen, Fowler

Best off the pitch: Rush, Owen... most of england, Fowler.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:29 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:The problem is, we don't have Rush, Fowler and Owen.

We have Crouch, who has played consistently well all season, and then you have Cisse, Morientes and Pongolle, none of whom have exactly nailed themselves to the first 11.

For now, totally, give Pongo his chance. Even if he's poor against Spurs persevere with him for another couple of games.

If Cisse comes on and bangs one in though, he deserves to be given the chance. Last season he was in form, then the leg went, and it was obviously just good to see him on his feet towards the end of the campaign. This year he's been in and out of the side, and although he's been guilty of some shocking decision making and frequently poor touch, there's still something about him that makes me think one day things will click with him.

It's not 5 games in the side for the crowd's benefit either stu, it's 5 straight games for the benefit of the player. Owen frequently had phases after being injured where he'd plod along on the defender's shoulder to no effect, and you wouldn't even notice him on the pitch. Then, a couple of games later he'd pop up and score with his only contribution of the game, then the next game you'd see him more, and you'll gradually see faith in selecting him being repaid game after game. With strikers, it's a gradual thing though. Fowler was the same.

If we end up selling Cisse without giving him a decent run in the side, it'll be ridiculous.

Disagree completely. I don't rate him at all and thats the end of it. Distinctly average player and there are around about 20 strikers in the country better than him, for me, thats not good enough.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:34 pm

Just out of interest, would Ashton be one of them?

by **drummerphil** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:37 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:Just out of interest, would Ashton be one of them?

he is for me definately.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:38 pm

Shut up you nonse... :laugh:

Probably yes!

As i've said many times mate, that lads frighteningly good. I genuinely believe he's got a similar level of ability as a forward to what Alonso has a midfielder. He's got everythin, under a good manager he'd be a terrific player.

Infact if i could pick two players for 10million i'd take him and Bullard. Both would be superb i reckon.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:39 pm

We missed the boat big time with him and he's a far better alround player than Crouch.

On saying that though, Peter's done really well and you don't need to fix what isn't broke so there ya go.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:42 pm

I think average is harsh - I think poor touch on far too many occasions has made him look a lot worse than he is.

Also, for the record, Ashton is alright, but I think you rate him far too highly. At the moment I'd definitely have Cisse ahead of him.

As I've said before, I agree with you on Bullard though.

by **A.B.** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:51 pm

I'd have Ashton ahead of Cisse any day of the week. I saw him play a couple of times for Norwich last season, and he has a better footballing brain than Cisse. His shooting is much more precise than Cisse and his touch is better.

Of course he doesn't have the pace of Djibril, but he would suit Rafa's system. I can see why Stu rates him.

by **drummerphil** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:55 pm

A.B. wrote:I'd have Ashton ahead of Cisse any day of the week. I saw him play a couple of times for Norwich last season, and he has a better footballing brain than Cisse. His shooting is much more precise than Cisse and his touch is better.

Of course he doesn't have the pace of Djibril, but he would suit Rafa's system. I can see why Stu rates him.

i've been shouting Ashton on here since he was at Crewe.It was a sad day he went to Norwich and i've read to day teams like westham,portsmouth etc would like him.............it will be a crying shame again if he didnt end up as a red this time.

by **JBG** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:58 pm

Ashton is a good player, but needs to make the right move now. A move to someone like Portsmouth or Birmingham, who could go on to get relegated, could be a disaster.

In my opinion, he is good enough to get a chance at a top 4 side. There is an element of risk as the English game is littered with hugely promising forwards who died a death when they moved to a big club.

Ashton could probably be signed from Norwich for around £6m to £7m, and wouldn't have outrageous wages. If he doesn't work out you'd probably get half of that back in two years as there will be always a club like Middlesboro or Villa who'll give him another shot, but if he did work out............

by **A.B.** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:01 am

JBG wrote:Ashton is a good player, but needs to make the right move now. A move to someone like Portsmouth or Birmingham, who could go on to get relegated, could be a disaster.

In my opinion, he is good enough to get a chance at a top 4 side. There is an element of risk as the English game is littered with hugely promising forwards who died a death when they moved to a big club.

Ashton could probably be signed from Norwich for around £6m to £7m, and wouldn't have outrageous wages. If he doesn't work out you'd probably get half of that back in two years as there will be always a club like Middlesboro or Villa who'll give him another shot, but if he did work out............

I reckon Ashton could be signed for a cheaper amount of money considering that Norwich aren't in a position to turn down a reasonable amount of money. Although, Ashton is their only chance of a playoff spot.

The thing is, would any of the top 4 teams buy him? It's a similar situation with Crouch. Most people laughed [not just our fans] when we signed Crouch, nobody thought that a top club would sign Crouch. But we did, and so far he's proved to people why Benitez signed him.

Perhaps Benitez will look at Ahston and try to bring him in?

by **ivor_the_injun** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:05 am

My missus' family live in Norfolk, and I've been dragged to see Norwich a couple of times this season. I know that the Norwich fans rate Ashton very highly (£15m or he stays put, according to a couple of local yokels), but although he was clearly a class act in the surroundings, it's clear just from looking at the spacing of the defences exactly how much of a gulf there is from the Prem downwards.

One things for sure, he gets a lot more time and space in the Championship than he'll have in the Prem. I saw him against Millwall, who you'd expect to be on him like a shot, but he had so much time to pick out a pass - even the likes of Birmingham and West Brom would've snuffed out some of his opportunities in a fraction of the time. I really do think he's being flattered by a poor league at the moment. Defenders just backing off and backing off - it was actually quite comical to watch. On one occasion he almost walked with the ball unchallenged from halfway line to the edge of the box before a challenge came in.

He did look alright in the Prem last season, I'll give you that, but I'd have reservations about him making the leap to a top 6 club. Much like a Kevin Phillips, Rob Earnshaw or Andy Johnson - he smells a bit to me like one of those players that's destined to be a big fish in a small pond. It'll take not far short of Crouch-style money to move him on, and I don't think you'll get the player you were expecting.

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