Liverpool FC Forum

[Stu the Red]

I wouldn't say that Carrick and Arteta are better than Lucas just because they're better passers. Lucas' tackling is far better than theirs.

It's a bit hard to argue about which players are better than him and which aren't because many of them have different qualities and do different jobs as a result, even though they play in the same position. But I know that one thing is for sure and that is that our team will struggle without Lucas on the pitch.

I cannot stand Carrick and do not believe he's ever been good enough to be anything like an England regular. But don't sit there and say Lucas is as good because that's complete utter rubbish.

Lucas maybe a better tackler than Carrick but Carrick can score more goals, he's bigger, stronger, can see a ball, can play one touch and keep a ball moving, he can carry the ball if needed, has decent positioning and can win a tackle himself. Carrick is a good player, the main reasons he isn't a top player is he lacks the movement and touch to influence a game when its tight and congested in the middle, for all sense and purposes he's a poor man's Alonso. Carrick given time and space is nearly as good as Alonso, (hence the reason he was the title winning sides player of the season).

[aCe']

So for those of you who believe that Lucus isn’t good enough and average,  how do you think he compares to other DMs like Carrick, Garcia, Mikel, Flamini, Arteta, Capoue, Sandro and Barry?

Not a patch on Carrick, Barry, Arteta or Flamini, he's at least a level or even two below all of those in terms of quality. The fact is that everyone has it in their head that he "does the dirty work" and "runs around alot" and "no-one appreciates how good he is" is irrelivant. Alonso covers more ground in a game, as does Gerrard. They also put just as many tackles and make more interceptions than Lucas and pick up more lose balls than Lucas ever will.

As a previous post said, not a bad squad player, but its the fact that he's become a regular (and not just him of course) that we are in our current predicament.

Just an extreme point (because that's how I roll )... Keane and Vieira played similar roles to Lucas... no-one ever would have "undervalued" them at any point or come out with the "yes but they do the side of the game only us special ones can see arguement".

I was about to post something similar. I agree. For me, Carrick, Sandro and Arteta are at a different level to the other names. Mikel and Garcia are both limited players so I'd accept the assertion that Lucas offers more than both and I'd take him ahead of both.

Regardless though, for me Lucas has a job to do in the side and that job doesn't involve creating goals or contributing much to our attacking play (besides recycling and keeping possession and making the odd forward pass here and there). Would it be nice if he had the skills that an Arteta or Carrick has to pick a good pass or create the space/chance for a teammate with good movement or positioning ? Absolutely. Given our ambitions though and the fact that his primary task is to protect the back 4, I think he's done very well so far this season. His role in the side is an important one (again, mainly due to the defensive aspect of it and the keeping possession part; both of which he's done well so far) and if he continues to provide us with performances that ensure our backline is protected without making too many mistakes while on the ball then I'll be happy -even delighted- with his contribution -limited or not- to the side.

[Stu the Red]

I was about to post something similar. I agree. For me, Carrick, Sandro and Arteta are at a different level to the other names. Mikel and Garcia are both limited players so I'd accept the assertion that Lucas offers more than both and I'd take him ahead of both.

Regardless though, for me Lucas has a job to do in the side and that job doesn't involve creating goals or contributing much to our attacking play (besides recycling and keeping possession and making the odd forward pass here and there). Would it be nice if he had the skills that an Arteta or Carrick has to pick a good pass or create the space/chance for a teammate with good movement or positioning ? Absolutely. Given our ambitions though and the fact that his primary task is to protect the back 4, I think he's done very well so far this season. His role in the side is an important one (again, mainly due to the defensive aspect of it and the keeping possession part; both of which he's done well so far) and if he continues to provide us with performances that ensure our backline is protected without making too many mistakes while on the ball then I'll be happy -even delighted- with his contribution -limited or not- to the side.

Hence the reason Mikel and Garcia don't start every match and and the fact they start to many is the reason that City and Chelsea aren't winning titles at the moment.

Lucas won't let anyone down, thats a given. He'll always give 100%. The point is we need to improve on him in the starting eleven. We need a player who is as good as him off the ball (or even better) and certainly alot better on the ball. For me Lucas doesn't read the game, he reacts well to danger, but he doesn't stop it before it has a chance to develop.

When we had Alonso in there, the amount of clearances that would fall from him and interceptions he used to make was unbelievable. He was like a ball magnet, the opposition would clear it, it would fall to him and he'd recycle it brilliantly. I wouldn't have liked to have been on the end of one of his tackles either.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

For the role he performs he's the most essential midfielder we have at the club,and his importance should never be devalued.

Where did u get those stats from.

They were pencilled in on your Mums knicker elastic ,right after the Gettysburg Address .

[damjan193]

I wouldn't say that Carrick and Arteta are better than Lucas just because they're better passers. Lucas' tackling is far better than theirs.

It's a bit hard to argue about which players are better than him and which aren't because many of them have different qualities and do different jobs as a result, even though they play in the same position. But I know that one thing is for sure and that is that our team will struggle without Lucas on the pitch.

I cannot stand Carrick and do not believe he's ever been good enough to be anything like an England regular. But don't sit there and say Lucas is as good because that's complete utter rubbish.

Lucas maybe a better tackler than Carrick but Carrick can score more goals, he's bigger, stronger, can see a ball, can play one touch and keep a ball moving, he can carry the ball if needed, has decent positioning and can win a tackle himself. Carrick is a good player, the main reasons he isn't a top player is he lacks the movement and touch to influence a game when its tight and congested in the middle, for all sense and purposes he's a poor man's Alonso. Carrick given time and space is nearly as good as Alonso, (hence the reason he was the title winning sides player of the season).

So Lucas is a better tackler but Carrick is a better passer? That's kind of what I said.

Look mate Lucas ain't no Xabi Alonso that's for certain, but Xabi is probably the best DM in the world. He's a tackler, he covers ground and he's a passer. He's an  intelligent player as well.

Now Carrick knows how to find a pass and keep the ball moving. But he's a poor tackler, doesn't pressure opposition players and isn't physical enough. In other words, he sucks when he doesn't have the ball. Lucas is far superior in those aspects. Carrick sucks even when he has the ball but doesn't have enough space. The game against the mancs was just 2 weeks ago and it was obvious that Carrick couldn't cope with the pressure from Lucas and Henderson constantly being right next to him, so they had to skip the midfield.

Lucas is a good player. He might not be the best DM we've ever had, but at the moment there aren't many better players in the league at doing what he does. He's a player that we need and a player that does his job.

[Stu the Red]

I wouldn't say that Carrick and Arteta are better than Lucas just because they're better passers. Lucas' tackling is far better than theirs.

It's a bit hard to argue about which players are better than him and which aren't because many of them have different qualities and do different jobs as a result, even though they play in the same position. But I know that one thing is for sure and that is that our team will struggle without Lucas on the pitch.

I cannot stand Carrick and do not believe he's ever been good enough to be anything like an England regular. But don't sit there and say Lucas is as good because that's complete utter rubbish.

Lucas maybe a better tackler than Carrick but Carrick can score more goals, he's bigger, stronger, can see a ball, can play one touch and keep a ball moving, he can carry the ball if needed, has decent positioning and can win a tackle himself. Carrick is a good player, the main reasons he isn't a top player is he lacks the movement and touch to influence a game when its tight and congested in the middle, for all sense and purposes he's a poor man's Alonso. Carrick given time and space is nearly as good as Alonso, (hence the reason he was the title winning sides player of the season).

So Lucas is a better tackler but Carrick is a better passer? That's kind of what I said.

Look mate Lucas ain't no Xabi Alonso that's for certain, but Xabi is probably the best DM in the world. He's a tackler, he covers ground and he's a passer. He's an  intelligent player as well.

Now Carrick knows how to find a pass and keep the ball moving. But he's a poor tackler, doesn't pressure opposition players and isn't physical enough. In other words, he sucks when he doesn't have the ball. Lucas is far superior in those aspects. Carrick sucks even when he has the ball but doesn't have enough space. The game against the mancs was just 2 weeks ago and it was obvious that Carrick couldn't cope with the pressure from Lucas and Henderson constantly being right next to him, so they had to skip the midfield.

Lucas is a good player. He might not be the best DM we've ever had, but at the moment there aren't many better players in the league at doing what he does. He's a player that we need and a player that does his job.

Carrick is far from a poor tackler. He also has positional sense in that he can read a game. Lucas cannot do it and never has been good at this and never will be.

Also, you must have been watching a different game as I thought Liverpool struggled at times to get out of their own half in the second half of that match. I'm sorry, but the acceptance of players like Lucas is the reason that we're in the current situation. Lucas is more comparrible to Cleverly rather than Carrick. The only reason United get away with having players of that Ilk is because of van Persie, Rooney, Valencia, Fabio, Vidic and even to an extent the aging Evra and Ferdinand (who are still good players).

[Stu the Red]

So Lucas is a better tackler but Carrick is a better passer? That's kind of what I said.

Look mate Lucas ain't no Xabi Alonso that's for certain, but Xabi is probably the best DM in the world. He's a tackler, he covers ground and he's a passer. He's an  intelligent player as well.

Now Carrick knows how to find a pass and keep the ball moving. But he's a poor tackler, doesn't pressure opposition players and isn't physical enough. In other words, he sucks when he doesn't have the ball. Lucas is far superior in those aspects. Carrick sucks even when he has the ball but doesn't have enough space. The game against the mancs was just 2 weeks ago and it was obvious that Carrick couldn't cope with the pressure from Lucas and Henderson constantly being right next to him, so they had to skip the midfield.

Lucas is a good player. He might not be the best DM we've ever had, but at the moment there aren't many better players in the league at doing what he does. He's a player that we need and a player that does his job.

DM? Its not football manager lad. You're either a central midfielder, or you aren't. Simple as that. The over obsession with tactics and "DM's and AM's and AMRCSTD's ) is just bloody daft. All that is, is an excuse for a player who can't do certain things. It makes teams one dimensional.

Carrick is far from a poor tackler. While he's no Gerrard he can certainly throw in a tackle. He also has positional sense in that he can read a game. Lucas cannot do it and never has been good at this and never will be.

Also, you must have been watching a different game as I thought Liverpool struggled at times to get out of their own half in the second half of that match. I'm sorry, but the acceptance of players like Lucas is the reason that we're in the current situation. Lucas is more comparrible to Cleverly rather than Carrick. The only reason United get away with having players of that Ilk is because of van Persie, Rooney, Valencia, Fabio, Vidic and even to an extent the aging Evra and Ferdinand (who are still good players).

[damjan193]

So Lucas is a better tackler but Carrick is a better passer? That's kind of what I said.

Look mate Lucas ain't no Xabi Alonso that's for certain, but Xabi is probably the best DM in the world. He's a tackler, he covers ground and he's a passer. He's an  intelligent player as well.

Now Carrick knows how to find a pass and keep the ball moving. But he's a poor tackler, doesn't pressure opposition players and isn't physical enough. In other words, he sucks when he doesn't have the ball. Lucas is far superior in those aspects. Carrick sucks even when he has the ball but doesn't have enough space. The game against the mancs was just 2 weeks ago and it was obvious that Carrick couldn't cope with the pressure from Lucas and Henderson constantly being right next to him, so they had to skip the midfield.

Lucas is a good player. He might not be the best DM we've ever had, but at the moment there aren't many better players in the league at doing what he does. He's a player that we need and a player that does his job.

DM? Its not football manager lad. You're either a central midfielder, or you aren't. Simple as that. The over obsession with tactics and "DM's and AM's and AMRCSTD's ) is just bloody daft. All that is, is an excuse for a player who can't do certain things. It makes teams one dimensional.

Carrick is far from a poor tackler. While he's no Gerrard he can certainly throw in a tackle. He also has positional sense in that he can read a game. Lucas cannot do it and never has been good at this and never will be.

Also, you must have been watching a different game as I thought Liverpool struggled at times to get out of their own half in the second half of that match. I'm sorry, but the acceptance of players like Lucas is the reason that we're in the current situation. Lucas is more comparrible to Cleverly rather than Carrick. The only reason United get away with having players of that Ilk is because of van Persie, Rooney, Valencia, Fabio, Vidic and even to an extent the aging Evra and Ferdinand (who are still good players).

You have no idea what you're talking about do you Stu?

First of, a holding midfielder is a legit position in football. It isn't an "excuse" for players that can't do certain things. You can't expect every player to be a passer, a tackler, technically gifted and a goalscorer. It's impossible. Those who are good at all of these are the elite and wonders of football, such as Gerrard. Most players, however, are good at few particular things. Some are good at passing, others at tackling. That's why these positions exist. Makelele was pretty much a one dimensional player, is he not one of the best midfielders that this league has ever had? Or for example, there is also the AMF position. Put i.e. Ozil deeper than where he actually plays and 40 million will go to waste.

Secondly, if by dominance you mean Vidic and Ferdinand passing the ball between themselves then fine, because that's all that United did against us, until Ferdinand got angry and started hoofing the ball because the midfield couldn't get the ball forward.

And thirdly, not that we need to get away with anything, but it's not like we don't have quality in our squad. For their Rooney we have Suarez, for their van Persi we have Sturridge, for their Carrick we have Gerrard etc. It's just our squad depth that is the problem.

[Stu the Red]

You have no idea what you're talking about do you Stu?

First of, a holding midfielder is a legit position in football. It isn't an "excuse" for players that can't do certain things. You can't expect every player to be a passer, a tackler, technically gifted and a goalscorer. It's impossible. Those who are good at all of these are the elite and wonders of football, such as Gerrard. Most players, however, are good at few particular things. Some are good at passing, others at tackling. That's why these positions exist. Makelele was pretty much a one dimensional player, is he not one of the best midfielders that this league has ever had? Or for example, there is also the AMF position. Put i.e. Ozil deeper than where he actually plays and 40 million will go to waste.

Secondly, if by dominance you mean Vidic and Ferdinand passing the ball between themselves then fine, because that's all that United did against us, until Ferdinand got angry and started hoofing the ball because the midfield couldn't get the ball forward.

And thirdly, not that we need to get away with anything, but it's not like we don't have quality in our squad. For their Rooney we have Suarez, for their van Persi we have Sturridge, for their Carrick we have Gerrard etc. It's just our squad depth that is the problem.

Really you've just compared van Persie to Sturridge....

And you say I don't know what I'm talking about?

F*ck me the world's gone insane!

[Kenny Kan]

I wouldn't say that Carrick and Arteta are better than Lucas just because they're better passers. Lucas' tackling is far better than theirs.

It's a bit hard to argue about which players are better than him and which aren't because many of them have different qualities and do different jobs as a result, even though they play in the same position. But I know that one thing is for sure and that is that our team will struggle without Lucas on the pitch.

I cannot stand Carrick and do not believe he's ever been good enough to be anything like an England regular. But don't sit there and say Lucas is as good because that's complete utter rubbish.

Lucas maybe a better tackler than Carrick but Carrick can score more goals, he's bigger, stronger, can see a ball, can play one touch and keep a ball moving, he can carry the ball if needed, has decent positioning and can win a tackle himself. Carrick is a good player, the main reasons he isn't a top player is he lacks the movement and touch to influence a game when its tight and congested in the middle, for all sense and purposes he's a poor man's Alonso. Carrick given time and space is nearly as good as Alonso, (hence the reason he was the title winning sides player of the season).

Carrick was utter s.hit against us, even when the Mancs dominated possession in the second half.

[bunglemark2]

Can't see how some say Lucas is a good tackler. He must be guilty of giving away more frees than any other player on the team.
Frankly, I cringe when I see him about to tackle, especially in our third of the pitch.

[Hustler 2]

He normally gets yellow carded as his tackles are slow and mis timed

[ConnO'var]

I think the fact that Lucas is Brazillian probably works against him in most people's expectations of him.

He certainly is no donkey as has been implied by some on here.
Technically he is sound, provides a good pivot point and I generally find his no nonsense approach to the game to be fine in giving a bit of calm both in defence and midfield. Yes, he can tend to give away silly fouls but you can't have everything. Expecting him to be Alonso-like is not fair. Few players are of Xabi's caliber. Having lost him and getting Lucas to play there instead will of course feel different.

Can we do better? Of course. But he is a fine player.... in fact, I can see no reason for us not to push for a top 4 spot and beyond with him as the screen for our defence.

Need to give the guy a break. He may not be IMMENSE.... but he is steady and is an asset to Liverpool Football Club.

[damjan193]

You have no idea what you're talking about do you Stu?

First of, a holding midfielder is a legit position in football. It isn't an "excuse" for players that can't do certain things. You can't expect every player to be a passer, a tackler, technically gifted and a goalscorer. It's impossible. Those who are good at all of these are the elite and wonders of football, such as Gerrard. Most players, however, are good at few particular things. Some are good at passing, others at tackling. That's why these positions exist. Makelele was pretty much a one dimensional player, is he not one of the best midfielders that this league has ever had? Or for example, there is also the AMF position. Put i.e. Ozil deeper than where he actually plays and 40 million will go to waste.

Secondly, if by dominance you mean Vidic and Ferdinand passing the ball between themselves then fine, because that's all that United did against us, until Ferdinand got angry and started hoofing the ball because the midfield couldn't get the ball forward.

And thirdly, not that we need to get away with anything, but it's not like we don't have quality in our squad. For their Rooney we have Suarez, for their van Persi we have Sturridge, for their Carrick we have Gerrard etc. It's just our squad depth that is the problem.

Really you've just compared van Persie to Sturridge....

And you say I don't know what I'm talking about?

F*ck me the world's gone insane!

At least I'm not mentioning Fabio as a part of Manchester's world class players, nor I'm saying that Lucas is a bad player after praising players such as Flamini and Stephen f*cking Ireland in another thread.

[Octsky]

lucas commits a lots of stupid fouls outside the box which is very dangerous for us