Liverpool FC Forum

[Boxscarf]

[quote="heimdall » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:10 pm.

It is so depressing to think that just a few years ago we were challenging for the league, now we are light years away!![/quote]

I seem to remember you being this forum's most vocal critic of Benitez and you wanted him sacked long before he was sacked. Quite how you have the bare-faced cheek to call yourself a supporter I'll never know, you're a fan, a fair-weather fan at that.

[stmichael]

I still go back to what I said before. We don't have a defined way of playing. At least last season we knew how were playing in the second half of the season with Lucas/Spearing in CM and then 4 players ahead of them with good movement. It was great to watch at times. However this season we look anything but. We buy Carroll and buy players to ultimately supply him and that hasn't worked. Suarez doesn't suit the role upfront on his own unless he's surrounded by players who have the same quality of movement as him. Those players (Maxi, Bellamy and Kuyt) have either been in and out the side or out of favour completely. So essentially we're stuck between two ways of playing. Henderson could have played last season in Spearing's role alongside Lucas, but to play him wide right this season just isn't fair on the lad.

[Kenny Kan]

I still go back to what I said before. We don't have a defined way of playing. At least last season we knew how were playing in the second half of the season with Lucas/Spearing in CM and then 4 players ahead of them with good movement. It was great to watch at times. However this season we look anything but. We buy Carroll and buy players to ultimately supply him and that hasn't worked. Suarez doesn't suit the role upfront on his own unless he's surrounded by players who have the same quality of movement as him. Those players (Maxi, Bellamy and Kuyt) have either been in and out the side or out of favour completely. So essentially we're stuck between two ways of playing. Henderson could have played last season in Spearing's role alongside Lucas, but to play him wide right this season just isn't fair on the lad.

good post, agreed about the "defined" way of playing.

[stmichael]

and another thing is, that great football last season happened to coincide with gerrard getting injured and being out the side. it made other players step up and take responsibility. our movement off the ball was exceptional, fulham away being the pinnacle. the problem with gerrard is he's a fantastic player with the ball as he'll always demand it but he's not the greatest off the ball. he'll always want to dictate the play.

i'm not suggesting for one minute that gerrard shouldn't be in the side (he's still a class act and has a lot to offer) but we've really got a conundrum as to how to use him and where to play him from now on. the right side has been so poor that it seems obvious to me that he should do a job out there for the team but he seems to demand where he wants to play these days, even though he's not been an orthodox central midfielder for the best part of 5-6 years.

[7_Kewell]

and another thing is, that great football last season happened to coincide with gerrard getting injured and being out the side. it made other players step up and take responsibility. our movement off the ball was exceptional, fulham away being the pinnacle. the problem with gerrard is he's a fantastic player with the ball as he'll always demand it but he's not the greatest off the ball. he'll always want to dictate the play.

i'm not suggesting for one minute that gerrard shouldn't be in the side (he's still a class act and has a lot to offer) but we've really got a conundrum as to how to use him and where to play him from now on. the right side has been so poor that it seems obvious to me that he should do a job out there for the team but he seems to demand where he wants to play these days, even though he's not been an orthodox central midfielder for the best part of 5-6 years.

it highlights the lack of tactical nous in our approach.

Gerrard’s best position is behind the strikers, flowing with them and playing those killer balls that saw Torres get so many goals. We’ve not got that because he plays deep...and then when he is positioned further forward he’s forced to drop back to cover for the likes of Spearing, Adam, Downing and Henderson. 
Kenny needs to go back to basics...imagine he’s just joined the club again and pick a balanced team, regardless of how much players cost.  Only then can we find what works best for Liverpool...instead of trying to prise good performances out of players who, quite frankly, are off form and destroyed of confidence.

[spiceboys2014]

As much as some want kk to leave, I dont think it will happen. Who else other than Rafa would possibly come in.

I feel whoever is in charge needs serious cash in the summer 100m. At least.  And get lucas fit, get rid of the kop flops and see whrre we are

[heimdall]

[quote="heimdall » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:10 pm.

It is so depressing to think that just a few years ago we were challenging for the league, now we are light years away!!

I seem to remember you being this forum's most vocal critic of Benitez and you wanted him sacked long before he was sacked. Quite how you have the bare-faced cheek to call yourself a supporter I'll never know, you're a fan, a fair-weather fan at that.[/quote]

Interesting, is a supporter better than a fan? By fair-weather fan i assume you mean a fan that wants his team to be successful and challenging for the league because that's what i want. at the time I think it was right for Rafa to go, but I am flexible enough to consider the option of bringing him back, do you honestly consider Kenny a better manager?

[stmichael]

and another thing is, that great football last season happened to coincide with gerrard getting injured and being out the side. it made other players step up and take responsibility. our movement off the ball was exceptional, fulham away being the pinnacle. the problem with gerrard is he's a fantastic player with the ball as he'll always demand it but he's not the greatest off the ball. he'll always want to dictate the play.

i'm not suggesting for one minute that gerrard shouldn't be in the side (he's still a class act and has a lot to offer) but we've really got a conundrum as to how to use him and where to play him from now on. the right side has been so poor that it seems obvious to me that he should do a job out there for the team but he seems to demand where he wants to play these days, even though he's not been an orthodox central midfielder for the best part of 5-6 years.

it highlights the lack of tactical nous in our approach.

Gerrard’s best position is behind the strikers, flowing with them and playing those killer balls that saw Torres get so many goals. We’ve not got that because he plays deep...and then when he is positioned further forward he’s forced to drop back to cover for the likes of Spearing, Adam, Downing and Henderson. 
Kenny needs to go back to basics...imagine he’s just joined the club again and pick a balanced team, regardless of how much players cost.  Only then can we find what works best for Liverpool...instead of trying to prise good performances out of players who, quite frankly, are off form and destroyed of confidence.

it goes back to this archaic insistence in england that 4-4-2 is the best formation. gerrard isn't an out and out wide player and he isn't a striker so he assumes he's a central midfielder. anyone can see that he's not at his most dangerous there. as you have said it's been painful watching him picking the ball up off the centre halves at times this season. he was devastating against everton but that was a lot to do with their abysmal team set up which played into our hands.

[Homebooby]

and another thing is, that great football last season happened to coincide with gerrard getting injured and being out the side. it made other players step up and take responsibility. our movement off the ball was exceptional, fulham away being the pinnacle. the problem with gerrard is he's a fantastic player with the ball as he'll always demand it but he's not the greatest off the ball. he'll always want to dictate the play.

i'm not suggesting for one minute that gerrard shouldn't be in the side (he's still a class act and has a lot to offer) but we've really got a conundrum as to how to use him and where to play him from now on. the right side has been so poor that it seems obvious to me that he should do a job out there for the team but he seems to demand where he wants to play these days, even though he's not been an orthodox central midfielder for the best part of 5-6 years.

I agree with this and the post from St. Mick previously. I don't think the Gerrard conundrum is a new phenomenon either. Back in the day, he almost seemed to be overcommiting himself and all balls seemed to be channelled through the man himself. Tactically we were easily dealt with, cut out Stevie and the rest of the team was lost. This was certainly true of most of the Benitez area too. The team almost always seemed to pick up as a collective entity when he wasn't around. I always found that interesting, cos he doesn't strike me as a selfish player at all, so it must be a deployed tactic.

My only answer to the variations in play and the fact that we were better at the tail end of last season is that I think that it shows Kenny can do it. We were workmanlike. I think the Lucas foundation has thrown us for a loop since it hasn't been there and we've struggled to find any solution that is outstanding. I think that fitness in general has needed to be established for some key players and various areas have been allowed time to develop, not particularly shone and then we've mixed things up again. I don't think that this has anything particularly to do with a tactical approach to our opponents which seems to be a common critique. I think we've been trying out various pairings and giving them time to gel regardless almost of the teams we have been facing, which is why we have faced such varied results. The opotimist in me thinks that this is entirely necessary to justify quality purchases in the summer. Same as in our workplaces, you can't just go and buy the technology you need, you need to show the business need first off and then make the case. I agree this needs to change and I hope that we're buying quality in the summer.

[Homebooby]

I should also note that I think that Gerrard is in transition too. He needs to learn a new style of play for his age and capabilities...he can't run up and down the field each game at 100 miles an hour. I think he will determine a lot of his future as this becomes clearer.

[stmichael]

Gerrard's versatility has in some ways been his downfall down the years, certainly at international level. He becomes the fall guy who ends up filling in for everybody else. He played as a holding midfielder under Sven to accomodate Lampard (an utter waste), was shifted to the right under Mclaren to accomodate Barry (just ridiculous) and then to top it off shunted to the left under Capello because they essentially had nobody else good enough. It can't be a coincidence that since 2006 not one manager for club or country has played Gerrard as an orthodox central midfielder at the very highest level.

He's an attacking weapon and should be used for that. His link up play with Carroll and Suarez is exceptional at times. I don't want him doing defensive work but unfortunately with Lucas being out and with other midfielders being unable to take the game by the scruff of the neck he feels he needs to take on all the responsibility himself. At times against Wigan, Spearing was closer to Suarez than Gerrard which is just ludicrous.

Just on a sidenote, how well do people think we would have done had we signed Parker and Adebayor in the summer instead of Carroll and Adam for example? Parker could certainly have fulfilled the Lucas role and Adebayor, whilst hardly prolific, is still a more mobile version of Carroll.

[Homebooby]

Gerrard's versatility has in some ways been his downfall down the years, certainly at international level. He becomes the fall guy who ends up filling in for everybody else. He played as a holding midfielder under Sven to accomodate Lampard (an utter waste), was shifted to the right under Mclaren to accomodate Barry (just ridiculous) and then to top it off shunted to the left under Capello because they essentially had nobody else good enough. It can't be a coincidence that since 2006 not one manager for club or country has played Gerrard as an orthodox central midfielder at the very highest level.

He's an attacking weapon and should be used for that. His link up play with Carroll and Suarez is exceptional at times. I don't want him doing defensive work but unfortunately with Lucas being out and with other midfielders being unable to take the game by the scruff of the neck he feels he needs to take on all the responsibility himself. At times against Wigan, Spearing was closer to Suarez than Gerrard which is just ludicrous.

Just on a sidenote, how well do people think we would have done had we signed Parker and Adebayor in the summer instead of Carroll and Adam for example? Parker could certainly have fulfilled the Lucas role and Adebayor, whilst hardly prolific, is still a more mobile version of Carroll.

Agreed 100%, I have never understood why he hasn't been played just in behind the front 2 and he should be utilised that way

I think that missing out on Parker was unfortunate. I seem to remember a lot of people saw him as not that great of a player and almost interchangeable with Adam in terms of levels, but parker seems to be operating at a higher level. Perhaps that has to do with the players around him too.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

and another thing is, that great football last season happened to coincide with gerrard getting injured and being out the side. it made other players step up and take responsibility. our movement off the ball was exceptional, fulham away being the pinnacle. the problem with gerrard is he's a fantastic player with the ball as he'll always demand it but he's not the greatest off the ball. he'll always want to dictate the play.

i'm not suggesting for one minute that gerrard shouldn't be in the side (he's still a class act and has a lot to offer) but we've really got a conundrum as to how to use him and where to play him from now on. the right side has been so poor that it seems obvious to me that he should do a job out there for the team but he seems to demand where he wants to play these days, even though he's not been an orthodox central midfielder for the best part of 5-6 years.

it highlights the lack of tactical nous in our approach.

Gerrard’s best position is behind the strikers, flowing with them and playing those killer balls that saw Torres get so many goals. We’ve not got that because he plays deep...and then when he is positioned further forward he’s forced to drop back to cover for the likes of Spearing, Adam, Downing and Henderson. 
Kenny needs to go back to basics...imagine he’s just joined the club again and pick a balanced team, regardless of how much players cost.  Only then can we find what works best for Liverpool...instead of trying to prise good performances out of players who, quite frankly, are off form and destroyed of confidence.

it goes back to this archaic insistence in england that 4-4-2 is the best formation. gerrard isn't an out and out wide player and he isn't a striker so he assumes he's a central midfielder. anyone can see that he's not at his most dangerous there. as you have said it's been painful watching him picking the ball up off the centre halves at times this season. he was devastating against everton but that was a lot to do with their abysmal team set up which played into our hands.

i think we play better when we line up 4-4-2 though because we get more men forward, our 4-3-3`s tend to end up 4-5-1 with our front man isolated up front.
saying that mate i think i`ve mentioned before on here a conversation i saw capello have on that goals on sunday programme on sky, one of the presenters was quizzing capello about christmas tree formations and 4-3-3 and all sorts but capello just stopped him and told him not to get too obsessed with formations, capello said in the modern game everyone defends and everyone attacks, positions considered to be entirely defensive years ago like fullbacks are now some of the most important attacking players on the pitch and in the modern game where teams are encouraged to win the ball back as high up the pitch as possible forwards are now important defensive players. capello said a more accurate description of a formation in the modern game would be 10-1.
i think thats were we go wrong, we dont attack as a team or defend as a team, when we attack we dont get enough numbers into the opposition box and when we defend a lot of players dont press the man with the ball with any conviction, they sort of amble over to him. if one of our players does make the effort to press someone the player just passes the ball to someone else in acres of space, we dont hunt the ball in packs.

[desmdlow]

I am tired of this board in general. Every time I check in it's the same discussion with few people seeming to remember the whole thing almost disintegrated less than 2 yrs ago. I will agree that Rafa did some great things and I liked him a lot, but H&G reaped a lot of damage on the club and I am sure we will still be feeling the repercussions for years to come. The most significant being that the media smelled a killing of the pack leader and have refused to let up. We haven't made things easy for ourselves this season and I would agree that partially we could have made it easier on ourselves, but I also quite like the fact the Kenny throws his toys out of the pram and challenges the media....how many years did Fergie refuse to do interviews? A sure sign that he was losing the plot and incapable of operating successfully in today's media savvy world if ever I saw it.

Coming back to the team, the turning point we can all agree on was losing Alonso and that is when the rot really set in with the playing quality. Torres started to go downhill from then on in and our already heavy dependance on Stevie increased. I still see a few years in him yet, but our continued dependance on him has been exposed in some ways this season as we have been toothless in front of goal. That said, the fact that we were within a shout of a CL spot until Feb having missed him, Suarez and Lucas for significant points of the season points to signs of hope. Noone disagrees that we are missing quality and we'll only see in the summer if we'll get to bring some in or not. Imagine Arsenal without Van Persie....where would they be? It can be the difference between the mid=table and a top 4 spot.

If the money comes flowing and we can buy, you can expect the expectation from the owners to be high and they are looking to build on the success this year, if not, then you can guarantee that we'll be seeing a slow build progression over several years as we edge out the old faithfuls from the team and build a new squad for the future. I think personally a lot rides on the FA cup. I think most managers are challenged with a prove what you can  do before we spunk a load more up money approach from their owners. I don't think that they expected anything this year at all as we were in such dire straits, even maintaining the same course as the end of last year would have been ok while they sorted other things out like the stadium and contract renegotiations etc. The league cup was an added bonus. If we even make it to Wembley again, I think that raises the bar. It puts additional pressure on the owners to support the manager and bring the quality in. Anything less will seem like a lack of ambition for a team and manager that is exceeding expectations, especially under an significant pressures.

As frustrating a season as it has been in some spaces, I for one have enjoyed the football we have played (when we HAVE played) much more than I have in as many years as I can remember. To see us moving forward with the ball and attacking as opposed to slow build up, side to side play, look at the goal then pass back to the keeper which has been the biggest disease in the premiership for the last 10 yrs is an absolute pressure. With the advent of championship promoted teams having success doing exactly that, I suspect that we will move back towards 'old school and outdated methods' in the future and perhaps Kenny is the ideal person to do that. Who knows.

At the end of it all, it seems like now we actually have lost the poor owners, be it Parry or H&G and arguably the dodgy manager, we actually don't have anything to talk about. Like in the real world, everyone needs a good war to get behind and if we've can't find one, we'll manufacture the f*ck out of one.

In sum, I don't think anyone can really find fault with the owners and anyone who considers finding fault with Kenny who is the closest thing we have to royalty at the club needs their head seeing too.

IF we haven't got anything positive to say, then we should say nothing at all. The ongoing debate is NOT constructive and is adding ZERO value to the forward progression of the club.

Erm sorry but are actually satisfied with our current league position and run of results, are you saying that we need to spend even more money on players like Henderson, Downing and Carroll, If so then I think it's you that needs your head checked. Do you have confidence that Comolli and kenny will make good signings this summer, even after Comolli came out and said there would not be many transfers this summer?

Am I satisfied with the results of late, no not at all. Have I been satisfied with the results of the past 20 years...not particularly. The reality is we have been under-performing for years and that has slowly eroded away everything that was great about the club when it was at its highest. Am I happy that that magic potentially isn't lost forever and has a chance of finding its' way back into the club to continue to be passed on by generations.....absolutely.

Regarding Kenny and Comolli, I haven't the faintest idea what will happen in the future and I have no idea how the relationship & strategy for the club has developed over the last season. Up until then, they basically had 4 months to figure things out and get active in the market. Additionally, none of us know whether either of them are given free reign to pull in whoever they like, or whether they are restricted due to the policies of the owners....we just don't know and time will only tell.

Am I happy that we are still mid-table by the end of the season having not seen our star player of the last 10 years for pretty much the last 12 months.....yes I am. I am also pleased that the club has repaid the loyalty Stevie showed us over the years by standing by him and allowing him a chance of full recovery rather than the continued rape that seems to have ravaged him over the last few years.

Am I happy that we have seen a new central defender partnership come to the fore that was not evident before and the gentle removal of Jamie to the sidelines with quite some dignity...yes, he deserves nothing more

Am I happy that Pepe is still around.....absolutely

Am I happy that we have managed to ride some significant injuries and bans over the course of the season and remain there or thereabouts....absolutely.

Did I enjoy the cup win.....I certainly did

Do I like the fact that we are in another cup semi-final with another shot at Wembley - I certainly do. I remember being out of most cups by November and out of contention for the league before the Christmas period was through...so yes, I consider this a little sign of a silver lining.

Is the job done.....f*ck no.....but no one on this board is arguing that point. We are trying to reclaim a sense of balance, logic, common sense and realism amongst the supporting group. Of course we need to be better and I think most would agree on the board that if we had converted half the shots on goal that we had this season we'd be challenging at the very least for a top 4 position. That is the margin that we are talking about, it's not that great.

Had we scored those goals and were challenging higher up the table, would that change my opinion.....absolutely not. The point made about the league table is moot in my opinion. Even if we were 2nd or 3rd we wouldn't be getting too excited. Most people want to see the type of football that we fell in love with, we want to see the golden quality days revisited and we are a long way away from that, but we are closer to it than we were 12 months ago. I would be very surprised if we don't make significant steps that way again the next 12 months.

I personally don't believe that a change in the manager will achieve this. I think a change is something that we can ill afford at the moment. It would serve only to destabilize the whole club again with no guarantee of any further success. We need to keep our heads down for a couple of seasons and start cranking it out. Fans need to unite and stay behind the club that we all feel strongly about and urge it to be great again. We have no divine right to a premier league title or any other at that matter. If the experiences and fall from grace that we have witnessed have not hammered that home to us then nothing will I guess.

I don't want to buy my way to a championship like Man City or Chelsea. I don't want an owner that could drop us at any moment. I don't want a squad full of ***** either. I want a team that I feel is worthy, with players I like, who would hopefully be the same type of hero for kids today as Ian Rush was for me, I want to play a style of football that is worthy of the LFC brand and I want the name LFC to strike the same fear of god into our opponents as it once did. In my humble opinion, that all takes time, but for the first time in almost 20 years, my instinct tells me the foundation is finally being laid again for the opportunity to allow that to happen. We shouldn't f*ck with it, just let it be and see what it grows into.

Onwards

Kudos to your post. I am fuming the past few weeks especially after the recent lost and have been ranting and raving all week of our lack of improvement. However, reading your post seems to put things back into perspective, and reminded me the horrors years of the 2 *****. But how i miss Alonso, if only we managed to keep him, we will definitely be in a better position. Thanks for your up lifting post.

[Homebooby]

one can only hope that we are in the market for some true quality this summer in the league of alonso. A lot of people questioned the girth we developed on midfield players, but arguably it was good foresight....we needed Stevie cover and we've ridden the Lucas wave pretty well. We've got the honest faced tommies fighting for the cause, do we dare to dream? ;-)